Love your blog! Thanks so much for having it on the net.
I was wondering what you thought of CKD. It seems that most athletes who practice this are consuming VLC for 6 days, then for one day they consume TONS of carbs. Many of them have PWO carbs, but usually restrict that to about 20g or so. In relation to this article on carb binging, I was wondering what your take on this regular carb binging was? How much harm are these athletes doing? Or is there some trick to CKD that makes it safe?
Also, if one is on a near zero carb diet, can they still build muscle effectively? And, if so, what is the best way? More protein or what? What would be a good PWO meal, and why?
BTW… I’ve always been curious as to why glycogen stores go up and down depending on carb consumption. If some glycogen is needed, and will be produced via gluconeogenesis, why is excess glycogen shoved into liver and muscle when carb consumption is high? How did this come to be during our evolution, where carb consumption must have been extremely miniscule if not totally absent? What is the physiological advantage (or disadvantage) to putting so much sugar into this type of storage?
Thanks again for such a great blog!
Dean
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:41 am Post subject:
Dr Mike wrote:
Hi Dean–
The fact that these folks eat a ton of carb once a week is mitigated by the fact that they are at zero carbs for the rest of the week. It’s kind of like intermittent fasting.
People can build muscle effectively if they eat plenty of leucine, one of the branched chain amino acids. It requires about 8-12 gram per day to drive muscle synthesis.
Glycogen is a storage reservoir for carb to basically get it (carb) out of the blood quickly where it can cause real damage and into the storage space in the cells. Although primitive man didn’t eat a lot of carbs, I’m sure when he figured out about honey be binged from time to time, and ate a fair amount of sweet fruit when he could get it during the short period that it was ripe. The glycogen storage system is designed for just such occasions.
Cheers–
MRE
So, it sort of appears that Dr Mike does not think this is a dangerous habit. That sort of surprises me. Since earlier in his article he says:
Dr Mike wrote:
Since the best thing we can do for ourselves is limit free radical damage as much as possible, the obvious way to do so is to maintain a constant low level of blood sugar, for which the low-card diet is just the ticket.
That seems to contradict what he wrote in his response about CKD. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:51 am Post subject:
As far as what I've been able to piece together about CKD so far...
It's really a process of hormone manipulation. It's a practice of tricking your body into thinking it's not starving. I guess any calorie restriction and low amount of body fat will cause the body to think it is starving, and the body will stop burning fat... and start tearing down muscle! THAT is definitely what is happening to me. What body builders MUST do to get that ripped look, is to employ these tricks. They involve refeeds with carbs... at least CKD does.
Does anyone else have info on this stuff? I'm very new to it, and am still trying to figure it out. One thing I've read over and over is anyone on a low carb diet is gonna lose muscle, and will not be able to gain the type of body composition where they have lots of muscle and low body fat. Sort of like what a marathon runner looks like, versus a sprinter, or boxer, or body builder, etc. This is what I am presently faced with. I wanna get sorta ripped and am being told I won't be able to, eating this way. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:57 am Post subject:
Quote:
One thing I've read over and over is anyone on a low carb diet is gonna lose muscle, and will not be able to gain the type of body composition where they have lots of muscle and low body fat.
That's total BS in my opinion. I am highly confident that I have not lost muscle mass on a low carb diet. And I'm pretty sure that I've gained some....at least a little. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:00 am Post subject:
Dr. Mike does seem to be contrdicting himself above. But, maybe by carb-loading once per week, that is often enough to keep their sugar metabolism working well enough so that they don't get the free radical damage that he talked about. I still would not do it, though. I would not want those insulin spikes. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:48 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Quote:
One thing I've read over and over is anyone on a low carb diet is gonna lose muscle, and will not be able to gain the type of body composition where they have lots of muscle and low body fat.
That's total BS in my opinion. I am highly confident that I have not lost muscle mass on a low carb diet. And I'm pretty sure that I've gained some....at least a little.
Well, I'm not convinced. I actually don't believe it is easy at all to get ripped on a pure low (let alone no) carb diet. You could try to prove me wrong, but the ones who have worked very hard to do this, all say it's not possible. From reading about the hormonal environment needed to do this, that does seem very plausible.
I guess Caveman Bob wasn't ripped. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:08 am Post subject:
Getting ripped has more to do with losing body fat than it does with adding muscle. I have plenty of muscle. I am not ripped because although I am quite lean, I still have enough body fat to cover the muscle. If I were to lose another 10 pounds I'd say, I'm pretty sure I'd have that "ripped" appearance. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:10 am Post subject:
Quote:
I actually don't believe it is easy at all to get ripped on a pure low (let alone no) carb diet.
Bear said it was very difficult to get ripped. It requires calorie restriction and hard work. I believe him. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:48 am Post subject:
It's pretty much dependent on the hormonal environment to lose that last bit of fat. Your body is gonna do everything it can to hold onto it. I don't think it's natural to be ripped. That's all I'm saying. I don't think it's possible to get that total ripped look by natural means (meaning to eat a natural diet... which for humans is obviously meat/zero carb). To achieve that ripped look, one must resort to tricking the body into various states, all via hormone manipulation. It has always been done with drugs, and still is to a great extent. The ones who are trying to do it without drugs are having to use carbs (just another toxin) to do it. That's all I'm saying.
I just don't think Caveman Bob was really ripped.
But... he was probably much healthier than a body builder! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:24 am Post subject:
Maybe one of these days I'll get the motivation to cut my calories and workout like a madman. Then we'll see...... _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject:
Here's what Anthony Colpo has to say about it.....
Quote:
If fat loss is the goal, I think the carb loads are not necessary and are in fact more likely to be a hindrance.
If muscle gain is the goal, and you are the type that can consume and tolerate large amounts of carbs well, then the weekend carb loads may allow you to shovel in a boatload of calories. They may also help to replenish glycogen that was depleted during the weekday keto phase.
The problem is, many folks who adopt low-carb diets do so because they are carb-intolerant. For them the weekend carb-load is likely to be a disaster.
My preference is to follow a non-keto low-carb diet every day, matching the caloric intake to your training goals (cutting, bulking, maintaining, etc). The large carb feedings are reserved only for immediately after glycogen-depleting exercise, when glycogen storage enzymes are really kicking.
Based on that, I would say that CKD would not be for most of us here. For the few people that can tolerate carbs well, it may have benefits. Although I have a feeling that over time, it may catch up with them. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject:
And there they go with the glycogen replenishing again. I still have not heard a good explanation as to why this is suppose to be so damn important! _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Does anyone else have info on this stuff? I'm very new to it, and am still trying to figure it out. One thing I've read over and over is anyone on a low carb diet is gonna lose muscle, and will not be able to gain the type of body composition where they have lots of muscle and low body fat.
Dean, this is also from Colpo:
Quote:
Hey pete69,
First I'll briefly recount my recent personal weight gain adventures...During the writing of The Great Cholesterol Con, I had let my bodyweight and strength levels dwindle. I still trained and kept in shape and maintained my single digit BF%, but my weight workouts just didn't have the frequency and intensity that I consider optimal. My mind was too preoccupied with writing and researching.
About halfway through last year, the manuscript started looking like something resembling a book, and I decided it was time to kick my weight training back into hyperdrive. Using a strict keto diet, I put on over 10kg, but my gains eventually started to slow as I could only eat so much protein and fat. My increasing lean mass had narrowed the calorie surplus needed for growth.
So he gained what......22 pounds of muscle on a strict keto diet? He says eventually his gains slowed....but after adding 22 pounds of muscle, so what? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject:
Yah, I've heard one would have to consume 4-5,000 calories of protein and fat every day to grow muscle on a low carb diet.
Anthony shoves a LOT of glucose into his system after his cycling. He is a major carb loader. But, I've heard him say that for resistance exercise, one does not need to do daily carb loads, only for real intense stuff like his uphill cycling. I don't know if he still thinks it's necessary to do CKD for resistance training or not. He's definitely no fan of zero carb. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:10 am Post subject:
It's funny how some of these people will admit that sugar is bad, but they still just want a certain "look". They even admit that it's as bad as using drugs to achieve that "look". Then, there are others who are in SERIOUS denial about the whole thing, trying to weasel up some explanation that makes it all seem so "healthy". _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:49 am Post subject:
I'm sorry, but this is a great example of what I'm talking about. It's denial city! Check it out! It's like, yah sugar is a drug... but, you will LOVE the binges you "get to do" on a CKD diet... and your muscles will look so awesome, etc. Sad, to say the least.
Is that sad, or what? Here's one sugar addict "athlete" trying to lure another sugar addict (me) into this WOE. I've been dreaming of eating donuts ever since I started conversing with these "athletes" (sugar addicts!). _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:36 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is a great example of what I'm talking about. It's denial city! Check it out! It's like, yah sugar is a drug... but, you will LOVE the binges you "get to do" on a CKD diet... and your muscles will look so awesome, etc. Sad, to say the least.
Is that sad, or what? Here's one sugar addict "athlete" trying to lure another sugar addict (me) into this WOE. I've been dreaming of eating donuts ever since I started conversing with these "athletes" (sugar addicts!).
Good grief! That is sad. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
I see your point. And I agree whole heartedly with you that human beings did evolve eating meat. I also think that carbs can almost be considered a drug, they are so easy to get addicted to. I have the same problem with sugar, once it hits my toungue its hard for me to stop eating it. I've gone through an entire box of Corn Pops in about an hour on a carbup day because of that.
.....
If you do like binging on donuts and things like that, it can be aloud in.
.....
Well, just plan the meal after a workout, and make it a donut binge for one of the days. I don't know how great it will be for you physically, but psychologically it can be really wonderful (as you probably already know).
.....
Plus your muscles WILL fill with glycogen, and they WILL feel really good the next day. I really can't make an argument about free radical damage though... I'm not really sure if it will have a large affect or not.
Bizmark,
No offense, but from reading what you wrote here, it is SO obvious to me that you are a sugar addict, and this CKD WOE is enabling you to get your fix. You are even suggesting that I get my fix this way. You say "If you do like binging on donuts and things like that, it can be aloud in." Do you really think I "like binging on donuts"? I have gone 77 days in a row NOT succumbing to that sort of DESTRUCTIVE behavior! Why would I want to go back to it? That's like a junkie or alcoholic WANTING to go back to their self destructive behavior.
I hope you will REALLY think about the problems that are SO obvious here. Basically, the people who do this destructive eating are either too ignorant about the science to know what they are doing, or are just so addicted to carbs, they are using it as a way to get their fix... and diabetes while they're at it! Oh, yah... and that great "look" they will get from it. That is so superficial, I won't even go into it. Screw one's health just for cosmetic appearance. Don't think so.
Good luck on your quest for "looks" and "fixes". I think I'll stick to the diet my body evolved on... one that is actually HEALTHY.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:59 am Post subject:
Great response, Dean. Sadly, I doubt if you had much impact on the person. I think the chances are very good that he will continue doing what he has been doing. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:04 am Post subject:
Bizmark wrote:
Quote:
Also, please don't judge people. Especially on online forums where things can be misinterpreted pretty easily. This will be my last post on your thread. Good luck in reaching your goals.
_________________
Fat adapted for life!
I love his "Fat adapted for life" signature. Eating as many carbs as he does, there is no way in hell he is fat adapted. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Interesting thread. I recently embarked on an experiment (partially inspired by Jeff's 4000 cal/day test.) In the last 2 weeks I've been eating 4000+ calories/day (about 80% fat---the rest protein and no more than 40 grams carbs) combines with a HIT style workout.
I've added about 10 lbs. The bf tester and the calipers both show it aint fat and my strength is going through the roof. I've put abt 2 inches on my chest and 1/2" or so on my arms. I am a little thicker around the waist, but I think its because my back is thickening from deadlifts. At least, my pants fit the same.
I will say its pretty difficult to eat this much so I'm doing a portion of this in the form of whey shakes mixed down with heavy cream.
I'm starting to wonder if upping it to 5000 would be even more effective.
So to all those who think you can't add muscle on lc...BULLS**T. You do have to gorge though.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:38 am Post subject:
Thanks for your input, Dan. Yah, as I've heard... one must eat a TON of calories if they wanna do zero (or close to it) carb, and grow muscle. jeff, perhaps you can do a one month experiment. Use that caliper web site for you body fat, and do a whole month of eating 5000+ calories per day... as close to zero carb as possible.
Let's see what happens.
Hell, I might even join ya! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:15 am Post subject:
Hey, Dan,
Have you tried BCAAs in your PWO drinks? Anthony is a big believer in them. He does not push carbs in PWO drinks, but does say they might be beneficial in protein synthesis. He may be right. Have you considered doing those 40 grams of daily carbs only in your PWO drink (or at least half of them, as dextrose)? Anthony does think protein drinks pre and post workout are very beneficial. I have to agree with this. And, of course, he thinks keto diets are muscle wasting. He thinks we should eat at least 50g carbs per day, to stay out of ketosis.
BTW. For pre and post workout drinks, I would not use any fat. That is going to slow the digestion of the protein (and carbs), which you want to happen ASAP.
jeff and I are certainly going to have to incorporate lots of these drinks into our diet in order to get those calories up. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:09 am Post subject:
If one eats a ton of protein, can that throw them out of ketosis? I think I heard that somewhere. I'm pretty sure (not positive) that a low calorie / low carb diet might be muscle wasting. If one eats lots of protein, this may keep the net balance of muscle wasting/growing on the growing side. It's an interesting issue. One that jeff and I are gonna have to throw our bodies into the experimental state over... all in the name of zero carb science. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I will say its pretty difficult to eat this much so I'm doing a portion of this in the form of whey shakes mixed down with heavy cream.
You're right Dan, it is tough. You have to do an awful lot of eating when you are not even hungry and dont even fell like eating. Dan, you said you gained 10 pounds of muscle and you mentioned doing a HIIT type workout. Could you talk more about your workout? Does this mean no resistance workouts?
I do think it is possible to grow muscle through HIIT type workouts. When you get your heart rate up close to the max, you release Human Growth Hormone, which has been shown to increase muscle and decrease fat. In fact, in studies men were given HGH and they gained 8% in muscle mass, and lost 14% in fat mass, without exercising! This is why I believe intense exercise of any kind is the best. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Barbell deadlift
Weighted one leg squats
Weighted one leg calf raise
Weighted decline crunch
1 set each to failure(even if the weight aint moving anymore, I push at it for a good 10 secs.) I add weight as often as possible. If I don't hit the number of reps I wanted to, I wait 10 secs and bang out another...and another...til I get there.
So far, so good. Each workout happens twice a week. I take one day off in between.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:40 am Post subject:
Dave,
Do you have my steaks? I checked with UPS and they say they have no shipment. Am I gonna have to ban you again? You need to keep those weekly rib eyes comin'!
Yah... he left out the catch. It's a weekly pay off. And, while Dave sends me rib eyes, some people are sending me Alaska king crab and some are sending me jumbo shrimp, while quite a few send me Wisconsin cheese. Bawdy sends me Maine lobster! That stuff is SO GOOD! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:46 am Post subject:
Dan, sorry about the HIT vs HIIT thing. My bad. Never heard of HIT before. So basically it's just very intense resistance trainiing? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:25 am Post subject:
Dan wrote:
I'm doing a portion of this in the form of whey shakes mixed down with heavy cream.
Dan,
Where do you get your whey? How could one find whey that isn't flavored and stuff. It seems like all of them are. And, they have to have a bunch of artificial crap in there, along with carbs, etc. Or is this just being too picky? jeff and I are really gonna need this for our upcoming experiment.
Also, Dan, do you think one could blend up the whey with a bunch of raw eggs? Would that make a difference? You say you used heavy cream. I assume you did not do this for PWO drinks, since those should not contain fat. But, do you think it would help to drink a bunch with raw eggs, or is this not going to work/not necessary? I was thinking about 3-6 raw eggs, some heavy cream, and some whey powder... all blended up. This could be consumed every few hours. I might even throw a banana in there for good measure!
Thanks, Dan. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: santa monica,california Joined: 03 Jun 2008 Posts: 39 Born: 27 October 1986 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:03 am Post subject:
just my 2 cents but i do think carbs can help you get that ripped look you desire, check out the anabolic diet, or underground body opus or! ultimate diet 2.0 a lot of bodybuiders use these ckd type diets, Im personally going to attempt the anabolic diet, all this comes down to leptin, the master hormone basically too low carb for too long suppress this hormone making it difficult to shed that fat, or at least get "ripped"
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:39 am Post subject:
Yah, Bear said it was really hard to get "ripped". I'm not so sure it's something that is that healthy to do. It's pretty unnatural. Oh, and why stop at using carbs, when steroids will work even better. Sorta like being a long distance runner and losing all your muscle. Two extremes that take one away from the balance of good health, IMO.
While there might be an advantage to using carbs to lose body fat, or even using a HC/LF diet, if that is the only way one can lose body fat they really need to lose, I've never understood people going to such extremes to get a body that is really not natural at all. Bear talked about using carbs to "pump" up the muscles, to make them look fuller, even though they really were not any stronger. To force yourself to get your body into some odd looking condition, by doing very unnatural and unhealthy things, is really sorta like anorexia or something. Just seems rather odd when you really think about it. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: santa monica,california Joined: 03 Jun 2008 Posts: 39 Born: 27 October 1986 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:54 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Yah, Bear said it was really hard to get "ripped". I'm not so sure it's something that is that healthy to do. It's pretty unnatural. Oh, and why stop at using carbs, when steroids will work even better. Sorta like being a long distance runner and losing all your muscle. Two extremes that take one away from the balance of good health, IMO.
While there might be an advantage to using carbs to lose body fat, or even using a HC/LF diet, if that is the only way one can lose body fat they really need to lose, I've never understood people going to such extremes to get a body that is really not natural at all. Bear talked about using carbs to "pump" up the muscles, to make them look fuller, even though they really were not any stronger. To force yourself to get your body into some odd looking condition, by doing very unnatural and unhealthy things, is really sorta like anorexia or something. Just seems rather odd when you really think about it.
no its probably not the most natural thing, its just for fun, just to experiment or if you wanted to do a photo shoot or competition, i prefer to be low carb most of the time, avoid the bloat, gas,discomfort, and haze, no need to really go to extremes just be comfortable with yourself and its not like you cant get very lean or fit low carb my bf refuses to go low carb because he gets so freakin lean his abs pop out and hes veiny all over (of course i think he needs to just eat more he's always neglecting his appetite) its nice but unnecessary i like a little chub chub lol do what feels good
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 711 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:04 am Post subject:
I think it depends on your goals, and body, jmho.
Lyle McDonald has stated over and over that people can get "ripped" on a low carb diet, high carb diet, high protein diet, etc. As long as protein requirements are good, and EFA's are taken care of, it didn't matter, and depending on a person's body, some do better or worse on different ways.
What is your goal?
Look like a bodybuilder? Most have to take drugs to get that freaky lean, muscular, etc. There are natural bodybuilders, but they need great genetics, and need to be strict. Look at bodybuilders on beverly international's forum and site. Basically they follow a near zero carb diet and "carb load" two nights a week on bananas, oatmeal, sweet potatoes, or else they follow eating ultra lean protein every day with very small amounts of carbs. May get "ripped" that way with lots of cardio and weightlifting.
But how good is doing a ton of cardio and weightlifting every day?
Also, it's not their every day diet, day after day, year after year.
What if your goal is to fix candida overgrowth, which can affect your entire body, and give you a lifetime of health problems? See this:
EDITED to add: even when following a candida fixing diet, it says you can eat 2 hours a week of what you want without doing damage. Not sure if that would derail most people.
I guess it depends on your health, body, and goals.
Dean, do you really want to get big and ripped?
Or do you want to eat lots of carbs one day a week?
For what it's worth, I did a CKD for a short time before I got married. I didn't get ripped, but I did lost quite a bit of bodyfat. I had to watch my calories though. And I wasn't doing the cardio and weight lifting like I was supposed to. I'm sure it would have worked.
But, I don't really think that lifting that much weights and doing that much cardio is good for your body constantly, your joints, ligamints, etc are going to wear out from overuse.
(i'm not against cardio and weightlifting in general, in moderation, just the amounts you have to do for most people to get results on a CKD).
Phew!
That said, Dean, if you want more info on a CKD, let me know off list.
Jessica _________________ Make yourself happy, don't rely on anyone else to do it. Be your own best friend.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject:
Jessica, no, I don't wanna do CKD, nor do I wanna get "ripped". Although, like the title of the latest Sonic Youth album "Rather Ripped", that word can have other meanings, of course.
I just want to eat a natural diet that is high in animal fat, moderate in animal protein, and has a few carbs thrown in here and there, that are largely incidental, like those in eggs, cheese, condiments, shrooms, etc. I'm figuring out how to make this Carnivore WOE work, as most Bus members are.
I want to do moderate exercise, both cardio (mainly HIIT type) and resistance training. Whatever my body ends up looking like because of this, that is what it will look like. Trying to get a certain "body image" by doing all sorts of unnatural and unhealthy things, including using steroids, consuming excess glucose, which is so damaging on a physiological level, really has nothing to do with optimal physical health. It can also create some messed up psychological issues.
Having flat, tight, muscular abs is nice, and I'm sure that on any WOE one could get that, but, as you point out, getting that "freaky lean, muscular" look is going to require going beyond what is really healthy. Those "goals" are not too congruent with a paleo/carnivore lifestyle. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject:
I agree. Doing all sorts of unnatural things to get your body to look a certain way just doesn't seem very healthy to me. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
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THAT is definitely what is happening to me. What body builders MUST do to get that ripped look, is to employ these tricks. They involve refeeds with carbs... at least CKD does.
