Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: Intense Steady State Exercise
I did something a little different for my exercise today. I did about 25 minutes of steady state running, but it was anything but long and slow. I set my treadmill at 10% incline and started running at 5mph. Not terribly fast, but with that incline, it makes a huge difference. I checked my pulse after about 8 mintutes. It was 160, which would be about 91% my max. I checked again after 16 minutes and at the end, and got 170 both times, which would be about 97% max. Below is a table of Heart Rate Intensity Zones.
The Heart Rate Intensity Zones are divided as follows:
Zone 1 65% of MHR (recovery rides)
Zone 2 65-72% of MHR (endurance events)
Zone 3 73-80% of MHR (high level aerobic activity)
Zone 4 84-90% of MHR (lactate threshold(LT,AT); time trialing)
Zone 5 91-100% of MHR (sprints and anaerobic training)
As you can see, I was at or above the lactate threshold for virtually the entire workout. BTW, I had absolutely no "burn". Also, I was in the "sprints and anaerobic training" zone for at least 2/3 of my workout. My understanding is that is not suppose to be possible. Anaerobic means "without oxygen", which a person is not suppose to be able to do for more than a couple of minutes.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess I just thought it was quite interesting and wanted to share. As always, I'll welcome any thoughts/comments/questions.
_________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject:
jeff, anaerobic means without oxygen for the cells. A person can keep that up for a while, especially if they have good glycogen stores. I don't know how good that is for your body, to put it through that type of intensity for that long. The book "Lights Out" warned against doing that, saying that cortisol levels would be too high. According to the author, this type of intense exercising will put you into a basic
Quote:
"fear response" that throws your cortisol into the stratosphere while you see God. High cortisol is a blood sugar mobilizer, so it throws your blood sugar up again; when your blood sugar goes up, insulin follows. That means the continuous rebounding of excessive exercise alone can make you insulin resistant over time.
She makes a pretty good argument about not going overboard with intense exercise, saying it leads to heart disease, mental illness, etc. I have always thought that might be the case. She equates it with "being chased by lions"... not something you really want your brain/body chemistry to take on over and over. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: SoCal Joined: 25 Feb 2007 Posts: 39 Born: 12 October 1970 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject:
Hey, Jeff.
I've been using the Navy's method of measuring body fat. Working through the last couple of measurements, 10% body fat, which as you know personally is quite lean, puts me in at about 195lb. According to the BMI calculator, found on cdc.gov website, I would be well into the overweight catagory. Who's right? I say 10% body fat and stuff the BMI and its advocates...
A comparison between diesel and fat, alcohol and carbs seems to be valid. Diesel fuel contains about 145K BTUs; ethanol fuel contains about 80K BTUs. You put up a stock diesel engine against a stock alcohol engine of equal displacement, both of which have been tuned up properly, the diesel will crush the alcohol engine in the two most important ways - torque and fuel efficiency.
You're running on a completely different fuel and a completely different "engine" processes that fuel than the blokes who were poked and prodded to get the numbers you quoted. They don't really apply to you... My opinion, of course.
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject:
Quote:
You're running on a completely different fuel and a completely different "engine" processes that fuel than the blokes who were poked and prodded to get the numbers you quoted. They don't really apply to you... My opinion, of course.
An opinion I happen to agree with. I figure I can pretty much ignore most of what I read about metabolism and exercise, unless they are specifically refering to someone on my particular diet.
Peter, bodyfat % will tell you a lot more than BMI. BMI does not take into account how much muscle a person has. A person with more than average amount of muscle will have a high BMI. Any professional body builder would be considered obese using BMI. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:03 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff, anaerobic means without oxygen for the cells. A person can keep that up for a while, especially if they have good glycogen stores. I don't know how good that is for your body, to put it through that type of intensity for that long. The book "Lights Out" warned against doing that, saying that cortisol levels would be too high. According to the author, this type of intense exercising will put you into a basic
Quote:
"fear response" that throws your cortisol into the stratosphere while you see God. High cortisol is a blood sugar mobilizer, so it throws your blood sugar up again; when your blood sugar goes up, insulin follows. That means the continuous rebounding of excessive exercise alone can make you insulin resistant over time.
She makes a pretty good argument about not going overboard with intense exercise, saying it leads to heart disease, mental illness, etc. I have always thought that might be the case. She equates it with "being chased by lions"... not something you really want your brain/body chemistry to take on over and over.
I would presume my glycogen stores are quite low. Dont worry, this is not something I plan on doing much of. I just felt like doing something different today. What would constitute "going overboard with intense exercise"? Would she consider 25 minutes, 5-6 times per week excessive? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: SoCal Joined: 25 Feb 2007 Posts: 39 Born: 12 October 1970 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:32 am Post subject:
[quote="jeff"]
Quote:
Peter, bodyfat % will tell you a lot more than BMI. BMI does not take into account how much muscle a person has. A person with more than average amount of muscle will have a high BMI. Any professional body builder would be considered obese using BMI.
I gotta reread what I've written before submitting it.
That paragraph had a point to it - I meant to tie it to research statistics. Indicators like BMI, the Heart Rate Intensity Zones, even maximum heart rate are little more than averages and rules-of-thumb to cover some predetermined percentage of people. Statistical outliers, like me and others of naturally heavy frame and musculature, like you and others on a different diet and of excellent fitness simply don't fit into an average. Nothing wrong with us if we're above average!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject:
I found this regarding cortisol:
Quote:
How do I know if my cortisol levels are high?
Mood swings, lack of motivation to train, loss of muscle and loss of appetite are all symptoms of an elevated cortisol level. Sound familiar? That's right, overtraining syndrome. If you are not taking steps to modulate your cortisol, you are breaking down your muscle, storing fat and getting sick, all of which don't make for a fast racing season.
Quote:
What affects cortisol secretion?
Stress, which includes trauma, infection, disease and exercise, is the primary factor that dramatically raises cortisol levels. Wait a minute, exercise is a stressor? High intensity exercise and prolonged exercise both increase cortisol levels, which remain elevated for about 2 hours following the exercise bout. Repeated exercise without appropriate rest results in chronic elevated cortisol.
Quote:
How does cortisol affect my endurance performance?
It is only with chronic elevated cortisol levels that your performance will suffer, but the effect is dramatic. Excess cortisol suppresses your immune system, producing a greater risk of upper respiratory infections. On top of that, your body will be in a catabolic state -- breaking down muscle and storing fat.
Quote:
How can I modulate Cortisol?
Cortisol can be modulated through rest, nutrition and supplementation. First, since repeated bouts of exercise cause chronic elevated cortisol, it is key to get plenty of rest between workouts. Double workouts in one day are detrimental if there is not sufficient rest between the workouts (see side bar by Sally Warner Ph.D.). Next, as mentioned earlier, depleted carbohydrates leads to higher levels of cortisol, so keep up your carb intake. Don't bonk!
So it sounds to me like occasional, temporary increases in cortisol are normal and are to be expected. It's chronically elevated levels that should be avoided. This can be accomplished by getting plenty of rest between workouts. I'll simply ignore the part about keeping up carb intake. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject:
I don't know if you should ignore that part. I think it may be true. And, if it is, as the author of Lights Out thinks it is, that is why she says to not stress yourself dong intense exercise. She knows that with carbs low, your cortisol is already elevated. She advocates resistance workouts, and is not a fan of running, period. She says brisk walking is fine, and is healthy. But, she says anytime you get your heart rate way up, you are really doing damage. I have believed this for a long time. That is one of the reasons I do brisk walking, instead of running. Another reason is because of the pounding of my joints and all. I can get my heart rate up and down by brisk walking on my treadmill, using the incline. I have a very high grade on my treadmill. So, I have never needed to run.
I don't know the answers to any of this, but as much HIIT as you do, you may not be getting enough rest in between. Just a thought. I am gonna do "lighter" HIIT, but am only going to do it about twice in a 10 day span. And, in that same 10 day span, I'm gonna do Large Muscles Resistance and two sessions of Small Muscles Resistance. There are body builders who will not do any cardio, cuz they say it takes away from their building. That most certainly has everything to do with keeping cortisol levels down, in order to avoid the catabolism of muscle. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:50 am Post subject:
Hmmm, I'll have to look into this. I actually have been thinking recently about doing less cardio, and more lifting. I really don't want to lose any more weight, but I wouldn't mind toning up a bit and adding a little muscle. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:53 am Post subject:
Maybe if you read some posts at some body builder sites, like http://www.t-nation.com/ perhaps there would be more discussion of this. Let us know what you find out. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:55 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Maybe if you read some posts at some body builder sites, like http://www.t-nation.com/ perhaps there would be more discussion of this. Let us know what you find out.
Sounds good. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
I don't know if you should ignore that part. I think it may be true. And, if it is, as the author of Lights Out thinks it is, that is why she says to not stress yourself dong intense exercise. She knows that with carbs low, your cortisol is already elevated. She advocates resistance workouts, and is not a fan of running, period. She says brisk walking is fine, and is healthy. But, she says anytime you get your heart rate way up, you are really doing damage. I have believed this for a long time. That is one of the reasons I do brisk walking, instead of running. Another reason is because of the pounding of my joints and all. I can get my heart rate up and down by brisk walking on my treadmill, using the incline. I have a very high grade on my treadmill. So, I have never needed to run.
That all makes sense and may very well be true. But, I firmly believe that in order to improve your body you need to challenge your body. A brisk walk may be "healthy", but I really don't see it doing most people very much good, with an exception being the beginner. Also, when you get your heartrate "way up", your body will begin releasing growth hormone, which as we know has many benefits. Perhaps this growth hormone effect counteracts any perceived damage being done.
I really don't know about all of this. Maybe nobody really does. There is so much conflicting information. I tend to trust the feedback from my body. I do what feels good and feels right. That may be as good a way as any to go about this. If I feel like working out hard, I do it. If I feel like taking it easy, I do it. Today is my second day in a row with no exercise. My body was telling me to back off a bit, so I did. I like the results I'm getting. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject:
It seems I may have been on to something......
Quote:
That all makes sense and may very well be true. But, I firmly believe that in order to improve your body you need to challenge your body. A brisk walk may be "healthy", but I really don't see it doing most people very much good, with an exception being the beginner. Also, when you get your heartrate "way up", your body will begin releasing growth hormone, which as we know has many benefits. Perhaps this growth hormone effect counteracts any perceived damage being done
.
I found this.....
Quote:
When concerned with prolonged aerobic exercise, cortisol clearly functions to preserve body carbohydrate stores. Cortisol increases alternate fuels for muscle, such as fatty acids and amino acids (from muscle amino acid stores and protein catabolism), impairs glucose entry into skeletal muscle, and supplies the fuels (amino acids) for the liver to increase glucose production (see Figure 1). All these functions are increased during times of low body carbohydrate nutrition, such as when blood glucose falls. Thus, when doing prolonged aerobic exercise, the muscle catabolic effects of cortisol can be diminished simply by maintaining blood glucose, which in turn is best done through the ingestion of carbohydrate (liquid and/or solid). Alternatively, when aerobic exercise is performed for durations short enough to not critically lower muscle or liver glycogen (e.g. < 45 min), then the exercise-induced cortisol release will most likely be irrelevant to muscle protein balance. Also, the theoretical metabolic effects of these increases in cortisol may be overcome by simultaneous increases in growth hormone, testosterone, and muscle specific somatomedins. The net result is the preservation of muscle mass.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject:
I think what you quoted assumes your glycogen stores are up there... which they aren't.
Lower insulin levels will increase HGH. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:06 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
I think what you quoted assumes your glycogen stores are up there... which they aren't.
Lower insulin levels will increase HGH.
True, but my insulin levels must be low, otherwise I'd be gaining weight. I suppose my insulin is so low to begin with, that any possible increase related to cortisol isn't going to raise it enough to do any harm. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:26 am Post subject:
Also, since I am not using glycogen anyways when I exercise (Phinney), it seems irrelevant whether my glycogen stores are high, low, or somewhere in between. Just a thought. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject:
Quote:
She knows that with carbs low, your cortisol is already elevated. She advocates resistance workouts, and is not a fan of running, period. She says brisk walking is fine, and is healthy. But, she says anytime you get your heart rate way up, you are really doing damage.
This logic makes no sense to me. If you are lifting heavy weights and working hard enough to do any good, your heart rate will get plenty high. If you are using relatively light weights and are not working very hard, then what you are doing is not really resistance traing.....it's more like cardio. Just my 2 cents worth. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject:
You should go tell that to Neil!
Remember Neil? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
You should go tell that to Neil!
Remember Neil?
I would't want to say anythinig bad about his wife to him. Hey, did Neil ever pay you those royalties for plugging his wife's book all the time? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Joined: 25 Aug 2006 Posts: 264 Born: 18 December 2008 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:28 am Post subject:
Jeff, you are correct about light resistance training .
If light weights are good , then wouldn't no weights be better?
As far as Gh release, heavy weights with little rest between sets is the supreme way... due to the high lacatate it produces.
What we all should be concerned about is how much fat we are burning AFTER we workout, not during
that's where EPOC comes into play
Fat loss is all about caloric expenditure. We must burn more calories than we take in, and the real key to doing this, as mentioned before, is not aerobic training, which will burn calories while you are doing it, its anaerobic training, which burns calories while you are doing it AND increases the calories burned for hours afterwards. In the case of weight training, if we build muscle and keep it, that burns calories forever more. Even when you sleep!
The key with anaerobic training is what is known as EPOC. Anaerobic exercise burns a ton of calories while you are performing it. However, the metabolism remains elevated following this type exercise. This was, at one time, referred to as the oxygen debt, but is now referred to as the excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC). The recovery of the metabolic rate back to pre-exercise levels can require several minutes for light exercise (aerobic training), several hours for very heavy exercise (anaerobic cardio training), and up to 12 to 24 hours or even longer for prolonged, exhaustive exercise (interval training or circuit weight training).
The EPOC can add up to a substantial energy expenditure when totaled over the entire period of recovery. If the oxygen consumption following exercise remains elevated by an average of only 50 ml/min or 0.05 liter/min, this will amount to approximately 0.25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hr. If the metabolism remains elevated for five hours, this would amount to an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be included in the calculated total energy expenditure for that particular activity. This major source of energy expenditure, which occurs during recovery, but is directly the result of the exercise bout, is frequently ignored in most calculations of the energy cost of various activities. If the individual in this example exercised five days per week, he or she would have expended 375 kcal, or lost the equivalent of approximately 0.1 pounds of fat in one week, or 1.0 pounds in 10 weeks, just from the additional caloric expenditure during the recovery period alone. This is the key to maximizing the return on your exercise investment.
The next obvious idea is – if you trained the next day while your metabolism is still elevated, will we have an even higher return – is the effect accumulative? Is the whole greater than the sum of the parts?
Science has yet to give us an answer, however in the real world, I think so.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:36 am Post subject:
Hey, Steve,
Thanks for this info. I do agree with this. I am gonna get into HIIT myself here real soon. Trying to get some energy right now, adapting to total zero carb.
I can't wait to see how effective this is with zero carb, in getting rid of this last 15 or so lbs of body fat. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:37 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
You should go tell that to Neil!
Remember Neil?
I would't want to say anythinig bad about his wife to him. Hey, did Neil ever pay you those royalties for plugging his wife's book all the time?
WTF do you think I've been trying to do on this site?
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject:
Quote:
The EPOC can add up to a substantial energy expenditure when totaled over the entire period of recovery. If the oxygen consumption following exercise remains elevated by an average of only 50 ml/min or 0.05 liter/min, this will amount to approximately 0.25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hr. If the metabolism remains elevated for five hours, this would amount to an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be included in the calculated total energy expenditure for that particular activity. This major source of energy expenditure, which occurs during recovery, but is directly the result of the exercise bout, is frequently ignored in most calculations of the energy cost of various activities. If the individual in this example exercised five days per week, he or she would have expended 375 kcal, or lost the equivalent of approximately 0.1 pounds of fat in one week, or 1.0 pounds in 10 weeks, just from the additional caloric expenditure during the recovery period alone. This is the key to maximizing the return on your exercise investment.
This is exaclty what was talked about in the article I posted that said HIIT burns 9 times more fat than regular cardio. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Joined: 25 Aug 2006 Posts: 264 Born: 18 December 2008 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject:
HIIT does burn more fat,but the weightlifiting component (anareobic) of training burns even more fat..when done heavy,intensely and with little rest between sets.
I feel the best way to do that is using supersets and only resting a little after the 2 excercises are completed.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject:
Steve,
What do you mean by "supersets". Could you please give an example? I'm working on developing various lifting routines to be able to randomly choose from. I've been leaning toward circuit training based routines, to keep with this whole HIIT notion. What would supersets look like in this?
Thanks for your help. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Joined: 25 Aug 2006 Posts: 264 Born: 18 December 2008 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:16 am Post subject:
Supersets are 2 excercises done one right after the other. Usually pairing antagonistic muscle groups,..chest and back, tris and bis for example.
So you would do incline presses supersetted with dumbell one arm rows.
But some cool new research has shown pairing lower body with upper body supersets..seems to burn more fat and bulid muscle faster which is something we all are after.
so you would do some sort of squat ..regular,bulgarian,straddles etc. then immediately followed by shoulder presses. Rest a minute and do it all over again for 3-4 sets.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:30 am Post subject:
I'll have to look into that. I'm trying to develop circuit training workouts for HIIT days at the moment, so this could be helpful.
Thanks, Steve.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
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I guess I just thought it was quite interesting and wanted to share. As always, I'll welcome any thoughts/comments/questions.
Who's right? I say 10% body fat and stuff the BMI and its advocates...
Above average.....that's us!