Hey yall what do you think about this? Jenny at Bloodsugar 101 has developed a new calculator based on a new equation for protein requirements. I ran my numbers and to lose 1lb of weight/week it says I have to be at 1800 cals/day and have 150g of protein and 134g of fat. Seems like that's pretty high protein and pretty low fat?
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject:
Pooti,
Thanks so much for posting this!
Question. What did you put for the "Weeks You Have Been on a Ketogenic Low Carb Diet" question?
When I put "less than three" this is what it gave me.
67% Fat
33% Protein
This was the same ratios as yours, Pooti.
When I put "more than three" this is what it gave me.
78% Fat
22% Protein
Makes sense to me, since you will be more keto-adapted after three weeks, so you'll be using fat to replace glucose, rather than needing extra protein for gluconeogenesis, which is why I was wanting to wait to start my MAM Experiment till after another couple weeks. Although, this might be good, cuz, after two weeks, if I show a gain, then, by that time I will have gone more than three weeks, and can see what the next two week period will bring.
BTW, Bear said, at his age, that he does 60/40, but, he used to do 80/20. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Hi Dean, sorry to confuse! I was looking at the values that happen if I want to lose 1 lb per week or to lose 2lbs per week.
So for instance (and I will pick up discussion below this info):
**************************************
Your Height: 65.5 inches
Your Current Weight: 282 lbs
Your Age: 46
Your Gender: Female
Your Activity Level: Sedentary
Keto for longer than 3 weeks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO MAINTAIN YOUR CURRENT WEIGHT:
To maintain your body weight eat 2,315 calories.
You have decided to eat 2 grams of carbohydrate a day.
To avoid loss of muscle mass you must eat 150 grams of high quality protein each day. This can be found in 24.9 ounces of meat, eggs, or hard cheese.
Round out your diet with 190 grams of fat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO LOSE WEIGHT:
To lose a pound a week safely decrease your daily intake to 1,815 calories.
You have decided to eat 2 grams of carbohydrate a day. To avoid loss of lean muscle mass you must eat 150 grams of high quality protein each day. This can be found in 24.9 ounces of meat, eggs, or hard cheese.
To lose 1 lb:
1815 kcals/day
150 g protein x 4 = 600 kcals/day from lean protein (33% protein)
135g fat x 9 = 1215 kcals/day from fat (67% fat)
To lose 2 lbs:
1315 kcals/day
150g protein x 4 = 600 kcals/day from lean protein (46% protein)
79g fat x 9 = 715 kcals/day from fat (54% fat)
So to lose 1lb per week, the numbers don't look so bad. 70/30 fat to protein essentially. But using this equation, if I want to lose 2lbs per week and her premise is that I want to spare muscle and therefore do not reduce intake from both protein and fat, I'm in serious trouble in short order, right?
If you look at the cultures that ate meat/fat I can't remember the charts very well but they were below 20%. It was something like 15-19%. They discussed protein percentages and thought that something around the 20-25% mark was ok but on the high norm. Anything over 30% long term they considered to be at toxic levels.
So this is where I'm thinking this equation is still weighted too heavy towards nutrition from gluconeogenesis as opposed to ketosis (or getting the cals from glucose derived from protein rather than from free fatty acids). Am I just not doin the math right? _________________ 314/283/150
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:42 am Post subject:
Pooti,
I think she is assuming calories in/calories out, and if that is true, then, you would have no choice but to reduce the fat, because, if you reduced the protein, you would end up burning up your own muscle. The protein requirement I got for keto "more than three weeks" was much lower than for keto "less than three weeks", even with the weight loss plans. In other words, the need for protein went way DOWN when I was more keto-adapted. Did it for you? Try it both ways and see what you get. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Dean I think you are right. I think she's calculating cal in/cal out. I just don't think the body works that way.
Here's the numbers for less than 3 weeks:
Healthy Nutrient Levels for Your Ketogenic Low Carb Diet
Your Height: 65.5 inches
Your Current Weight: 282 lbs
Your Age: 46
Your Gender: Female
Your Activity Level: Sedentary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO MAINTAIN YOUR CURRENT WEIGHT:
To maintain your body weight eat 2,315 calories.
You have decided to eat 2 grams of carbohydrate a day.
To avoid loss of muscle mass you must eat 210 grams of high quality protein each day. This can be found in 34.9 ounces of meat, eggs, or hard cheese.
Round out your diet with 163 grams of fat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO LOSE WEIGHT:
To lose a pound a week safely decrease your daily intake to 1,815 calories.
You have decided to eat 2 grams of carbohydrate a day. To avoid loss of lean muscle mass you must eat 210 grams of high quality protein each day. This can be found in 34.9 ounces of meat, eggs, or hard cheese.
Round out your diet with 108 grams of fat. _________________ 314/283/150
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject:
Pooti,
Yah, on your not yet keto-adapted one it's 210 g Protein & 163 g Fat.
And, on your keto-adapted one it is 150 g Protein & 190 g Fat.
Basically, she is taking into account that if you are keto-adapted, you can have higher fat and lower protein, since your cells will use more substrates derived from fat versus protein.
Of course, on both of these, she assumes that in order to lose weight, you must drop the fat and leave the protein alone to avoid muscle wasting.
I agree about the necessary amounts of protein, regardless of how much that actually is, but, it seems that one can eat a lot more fat and it won't cause you to gain. So, perhaps she should say, to maintain your weight keep protein at such and such, but, eat all the fat you want.
As far as the recommendation for losing weight, perhaps one must reduce the fat in order to lose. jeff and I have not been able to lose eating lots of fat, and I really doubt I will lose this time eating lots of fat. Despite what some people argue, I think Eades has it the most correct when he talks about futile cycles to take care of excess dietary fat, but needing to reduce dietary fat to let go of body fat. That is the heart of what my MAM Experiment is really all about. I will either, once again, confirm what jeff and I have already found, or, because dairy has been removed from the equation this time, I will lose.
We shall see. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Near Edmonton, Canada Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 264 Born: 18 April 1965 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:28 am Post subject:
Hi Dean,
I am so excited that you started your MAM experiment. After 15 days of ZC (no dairy) I dropped 10 lbs really fast then stopped losing the gained 1 pound. I am at my sticking point though. I want to hold off on dropping the fat until January is over. I hope that is not what I have to do, I love eating fat.
Dean I am waiting with baited breath on the MAM stuff. I've also read about futile cycles on Eades site. It made a lot of sense to me at the time. Do you by any chance have any idea what your fat levels were when you were actively losing and also what the protein/carb levels were?
That's kinda the thing that this initial 30day period is doing to me - it's freaking me out cuz I'm soooo not losin. I have no idea why cuz I havn't been logging it so therefore I don't know what to change or if I should change nothing and let time do the job. :-/ Soooo confusing and frustrating.
So you agree that her calculations for ketoadaption protein requirements are correct and that they must be maintained at that level even during calorie restriction? You don't see it as a problem because of the high protein % relative to the fat %? Cuz to lose 2lbs per week, I'm around 46% protein, right? And that just sounds soooo wrong! It sounds like rabbit starvation before too long!
Also, the reason why I think she's wrong in her figures is that:
1. She's using current body weight and total body weight, not lean body mass or lean body mass at goal.
2. She's assuming that some of the ingested protein is going to be converted to glucose to use as fuel for the body "We assume that 58% of each gram of dietary protein can be converted into carbohydrate by the liver. The possible conversion of fat into carbohydrate at the rate of 10% is ignored a it is not a factor for most people. "
I don't think you can assume that this always happens. Up to 58% of protein CAN be used but isn't necessarily. If you are ketoadapted then you are running on fat not protein. The only real thing you need protein for is the amount needed for amino acid raw materials and the tiny amount needed to supply the parts of the body with sugar that cannot use free fatty acids or ketones for fuel. Even the brain once keto adapted preferentially runs on ketones does it not in the absence of sugar?
For one, if you are eating a high percentage of fat in your diet (like over 70% fat), I believe the body is going to preferentially use this as fuel over protein once ketoadaptation has begun. The extra protein is going to be discarded by the liver and kidneys - broken down into it's constituents (ammonia being one of them).
It's why I believe that hyperammonemia is a real danger with people continually overeating protein. I know if I eat the 1.13lb ribeye like I did a couple weeks ago, I start smelling ammonia big time. If I was converting the protein to fuel, first of all my blood sugar would elevate more than it is doing after eating and I wouldn't be smelling ammonia the by-product of protein metabolism because it wouldn't be breaking down into ammonia, it would have been converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis, right?
Am I thinking right here or do you think my logic is faulty? I think if you are eat 70-80% fat to supply your needs, even using cal in v. cal out logic, you can be better served staying nearer to the minimum protein amounts given by JK or those guys the .8 - 1g protein/kg of lean body weight or due body weight.
Your thoughts on this, please? _________________ 314/283/150
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject:
Pooti,
I think you are very correct in all you are saying here. I don't see any faulty logic at all. I too have noticed that ammonia smell big time, especially in my arm pits. I was cutting down on fat for the couple months prior to this MAM Experiment, and I was losing body fat at a fairly steady rate. Ended up losing 6 kilos of pure body fat. During this entire two months, I had a very pungent ammonia smell, and I'm sure it was from my protein to fat ratio being much too high on the protein side.
Ever since I started downing tons of animal fat, and even though my protein amount actually increased, from eating more, that smell totally vanished. I cannot sense even the slightest scent of this smell in my arm pits. What is weird, though, is it seems that the ratio of fat to protein is what determines that smell, not the total amount of protein. That does not seem to make any sense, does it? What do you think this is all about?
Have you been keeping track of your calories and ratios in FitDay? If so, are you consuming excess calories, and what are your fat/protein ratios?
Yes, once keto-adapted, about the only cells that will still need glucose, which they can and should obtain from gluconeogenesis, are the blood cells. These cells are more primitive, and, like our GI tract, are really "outside" the body. We evolved as sea critters swimming through water to pickup our nutrients. Through long evolution, land animals took in this sea, in the form of a stream (blood stream) to take nutrients to the various tissue in our various organ systems. This stream is inhabited with cells that are like prokaryotic cells (like bacteria), which must depend on glycolysis to produce ATP (energy), and so must have glucose. That's really the only reason our liver will convert protein to glucose, and why we have glycogen storage in our muscle tissue, which is distributed all over our bodies. It is to make sure the blood glucose levels remain at a constant rate. This is done by sucking blood glucose into these reservoirs if it gets to high, and slowly releasing it if the levels get too low. Gluconeogenesis, glycogen stores, and blood glucose are only necessary because the blood cells are more ancient than our tissue cells, which can use FFA and ketones as substrates to feed the mitochondria's electron transport system to produce ATP. That's where the futile cycles happen, inside the mitochondria.
It has been shown that this electron transport system will get messed up if the substrates are from the byproducts of glycolysis (glucose metabolism). Free radical city. This is probably the cause of all sorts of cancer and neurological disorders. That's why carbs are poison. People just think about eliminating dietary carbs for weight loss. They fail to see the bigger picture in all this.
Thanks for posting your experiences, Pooti. Let me know more about what you find out. We have to be the fricken lab rats in this new territory of health, now don't we? The Food Industry is not going to fund the research on this, now are they? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Dean we do indeed have to become our own doctors and this so sucks. Not only does the food industy fail to help improve health, they actively seek to hurt us. But the medical profession is so far out of sinc. When I was working with my endocrinologists and nutritionist, no one took me seriously about the ammonia! Grrr. They insisted I wasn't high on ammonia. Doh. But they never tested my arterial gases for ammonia.
I did have one doc who took venous samples and it showed ammonia elevation of about 15points above lab normal. But I later learned that any venous draw not immediately tested will allow ammonia to rise in the tube as the sample ages. So was it elevated? Maybe slightly.
I too had that smell in my armpits and body odor. Not only that but I had burning eyes and the smell of it when I breathed and sneezed. I tasted it when I coughed. I think this is big time bad to be smelling ammonia. You are the only other person I've found who admits having this side effect.
Dean, I do think it has something to do with getting enough fat relative to protein. I still get that smell when I eat too much protein. I know I've been eating too little fat because I had a hard time finding tallow until last week at Fiesta. I also missed ordering from Slankers this past week so I will have to try it for next Monday's shipment. They only ship on Monday.
I honestly think we do ourselves a disservice to overeat protein and in fact, I am going to start a new plan today. I've thought this for a long time. I also began wondering not long ago, about the build up of iron in our blood from eating 100% beef all the time. Men and post menopausal women are the most at risk because iron is cumulatively built up in the blood. The only thing that lowers it is blood phoresis (donating blood or menstruating).
I'm going to start a new plan today. I was going to continue for the full 30 days to eat only to appetite on as much protein and fat as I wanted to see what happens with my weight but that's obviously ridiculous to wait. I do think I'm over eating.
So here's what I'm going to start doing. I'm going to base my protein intake on JKs and Barry Groves percentages and add about 10% just for grins to it. That will put me somewhere around 80ish grams of protein per day. Then I'm going to fill up the rest of the amount with fat.
I'm going to go to 1800kcals per day: My protein needs per JK formula is 65grams based on due body weight. But since I doubt that I'm very ketoadapted right yet I'm going to put some extra protein in there to the amount of 90-100g/day and do the rest as fat. Let's see what the numbers are:
90g protein x 4 = 360 cals from protein (20.0% protein)
160g fat x 9 = 1440 cals from fat (80% fat)
I will still be having my average 2g of carbs per day in the form of eggs or cheese but won't figure that into my calculations. It's still essentially 0% carbs. So then we will see if I lose weight. I'm betting I will lose weight. So I will have to go figure out some things to eat to see if that's a realistic amount of food for me. If it looks doable, I may post a thread in the metabolic ward on it. It looks pretty similar to your MAM experiment with a calorie ceiling on it, doesn't it?!
I also want to go read your links on the futile cycling.
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject:
I think it sounds like a solid plan, Pooti. I think many of us probably do it too much protein. If I remember correctly, Bear said that we really don't need all that much. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Thanks Jeff! You know, it is really good to share concensus, right!? Right now I'm trying to work out the numbers in Fitday since my MasterCook is down. I'm pretty much a creature of habit with this plan so far in that I like eating a set amount and set menu for breakfast. I had been trying to skip lunch and go to two meals a day but the more I think of it, right now that is not working for me.
1. So my rules I'm laying out are 3 meals per day.
2. Set amounts at each meal: (i.e. I'm shooting for 20g of protein at breakfast, 35g protein for each of the two remaining meals)
3. Try to hit the 80/20 threshold at each meal and the calories should fluctuate somewhere between 1800-1900 cals and then let's just see what happens.
4. I am going to cut way the heck back on salt to have a minimum of weight fluctuation from fluid retention. I think I'm pretty susceptible to that. I still haven't eaten yet today cuz I haven't been hungry. So I am going to go ahead and wait until lunch to start this out. So this day will be unbalanced but tomorrow should begin anew with me being hungry in the morning if my daily hunger pattern is anything to go by.
5. I will use spices and herbs in moderation.
6. No booze/wine.
7. I will eat anything I want from meats/seafood, butter, fats, eggs, cured meats (yep that will add salt so will look for the low sodium kind).
8. I will keep my carbs under 5 and as close to 0 as possible.
9. I will have 2-3 cups of water decaffeinated coffee, black per day.
10. If I have to take sf cough medicine for this cough I'm still fighting, I will do it but it will be a rarity and a minimum. Same thing goes with sf cough drops. Those would be the only occurance of as products.
I'm going to keep listing my menu on my blog and showing my weight with it. I will try this for 2 weeks to see the trend. If still no weight loss then will have to look at other options. Maybe that will be dropping protein down to JKs absolute level (I would think I'd be ketoadapted by that time).
and dropping cals accordingly and keeping fats at 80%. I know one of these things has got to work.
My suspicions:
1. I'm over eating.
2. I am over eating protein especially.
3. I am one of those people who must decrease fat as well as protein, which may mean I need to add in low carb veggies again. I am going to post a thread reprint from the Hyperlipid blog. It's about what happens if you are missing an enzyme that unlocks the fat gates to mobilize fat. I've also read about this at other places (studies). I may be one of those metabolic types.
The reason I suspect the latter is that I can lose weight fairly easily on a calorie restricted, moderate to low protein, low fat diet. I was losing 3-4lbs on a vlc diet per week which I know was a lot of lean muscle loss. I lost 60lbs in 3 months. I also lost on a zone diet at the rate of 2lbs per month. Both diets were unsustainable due to hunger and heart palpitations/allergies with both. _________________ 314/283/150
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject:
Good luck, Pooti. It's obvious you've put alot of thought into this. Please keep us posted. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject:
Yes, please do keep us posted.
I would love to see you start your own Experiment in the Ward. That would help a lot of people, I'm sure. It will also keep you motivated to stay on course.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
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