The Magic Bus Trip

Sol

The question of whether meat and fat provide sufficient vitamins and minerals for my body is suddenly a very important question. A year and a half ago, when I went for my standard eye exam, the ophthalmologist noted that I had the start of cataracts in both eyes. My mom had cataracts. I'm only 44. My night vision has never been that great but in the last few months I've started to see halos around headlights and streetlights at night. This change coincided with my dropping plant matter from my diet. I'm not saying that the diet change accelerated the cataract symptoms but the change in night vision has caught my attention.

I've started researching cataract reversal and ocular health. One of the things I've read and believe is that the eyes need antioxidants, and vitamin C is a powerful anti-oxidant. It's interesting to read discussions about how carnivores don't get scurvy. Does someone have an explanation of it? I know that organ meats have vitamin C but my impression is that flesh meat doesn't, and a quick scan of the USDA nutrition database confirmed that beef has no vitamin C. So, are long-term carnivores all eating organ meat?

There's been a recent discussion about Vitamin C. Kristelle started eating some bell pepper for the vitamin C. I consume lemon juice. But, I'm concerned that my body may need more vitamin C that I'm going to get from small doses of plant matter and I have no interest in fibrous plant foods - I went carnivore because of lots of problem with fiber.

So, I've started supplementing with vitamin C tablets. I'm taking several 1000 milligram (1 gram) tablets per day. I'll also be looking into herbal eyewashes and other things to improve blood and antioxidant flow to my eyes. People have reversed cataracts with natural treatments so I'm optimistic that I can too, while maintaining a predominantly carnivore way of eating.

In my study of diets and healing I've run into orthomolecular medicine - i.e. megadoses of vitamins ala Linus Pauling. I'm drawn to this approach and will pursue it unless someone can convince me that flesh+fat is enough.

I think that the question of vitamin/mineral sufficiency in a carnivore diet is an important one for all of us. I've read too many horror stories of natural health gurus developing degenerative diseases and dying from taking their own advice too religiously and ignoring messages from their bodies.

While some would say that cavemen had no need for anything other than animal foods, they probably ate the entire animal, they didn't have mercury fillings, they didn't have environmental or chemical poisons, they didn't have decades of harm to their bodies to undo, they didn't inherit health conditions from their mothers in utero, and they didn't live the stressful lives many of us do.

I'm interested to know -- is there a good scholarly article about nutrients in meat? Yes, I can study the USDA nutrition database but I'd be interested in a document authored by someone who had scientifically studied the carnivore diet. And, I would like to see something other than the Inuit. That example has been overused to death; I'm not sure how relevant it is in this time, when so many of us are working to overcome our past "stuff."

Thoughts?

Sol

Nicola · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject:

I am shore carnivores didn't have cataracts - eyes should profit on this diet (like the rest of our body).

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cataract.html

My alkaline ionized water is very high in antioxidants:

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/water-ionization.htm

Nicola

Dean · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject:

Sol,

Excellent post. Yup

Yah, I often wonder about the same things you are saying here. I know that some resort to eating lots of organ meats, and eating lots of raw meat and eggs, etc. I stopped supplements, cuz I questioned just what possible overload of artificial chemicals and overdoses of certain nutrients I might be getting. I posted in Kristelle's journal (one of them LOL

) a question about C. Jessica said peppers are really high. I use cayenne pepper sauce on lots of meat. I try to eat raw eggs and raw meat to get extra nutrients from them. But, like you, I'm concerned about long term deficiencies. I don't trust the modern nutritionists to tell me what I need to do, however. Their advice has led many to develop serious health problems. We are all gonna have to figure this out in other ways.

The only thing I would caution anyone on is believing too much in supplements, or nutrient absorption from plant matter. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but, blindly trusting modern medicine in using supplements or getting your RDA of this or that through a "balanced" diet that includes lots of fruits and vegetables, is blind following of modern nutrition info. I think most of us are here to escape that. But, I agree that we cannot fall into the trap of thinking in dogmatic ways. And, if there is a way to "cover our bases", that seems like very sound thinking to me.

So, I think you make a lot of great points, and it is very worthy of discussion and investigation. I'm like you and don't want the fiber in my diet. My GI tract is damaged enough, thank you. Anyway, thanks so much for posting this. It is an important issue. I wish I had some answers for you and for myself, but, I'm sorta questioning this too right now.

So, does anyone else have any answers to this? I'd sure love to know.

Sunny

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Dean · Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject:

Nicola,

Thanks for those links. Yes, I think that by going as carnivorous as possible, one will avoid many health problems just by doing that. The need for antioxidants or other protective things will be greatly reduced when consuming animal foods, especially raw. There are "curative" substances in this type of food. The production of free radicals is "reduced" when running our body on FFAs versus dietary glucose. This has already been shown in many studies.

I use quotation marks around those words, cuz, I know that it is not that the animal food is doing anything special, it is actually the avoidance of non-animal foods that is the real secret to good health. If there are some medicinal uses of non-animal foods, then perhaps those things can help. However, there are so many different opinions out there about what substances are good and just how good (or bad) they are. I guess, for myself, I trust animal foods over non-animal foods. That is a blanket statement, I know. But, generally speaking, I believe it. That doesn't mean I'm not open to whatever ideas, though.

Anyway, thanks Nicola. I love your perspective on so many things we discuss on this board. Cool

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Sol · Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:08 am Post subject:

Nicola -- Thanks for the links. I appreciate the research role you provide.
Do you know of a less expensive way to ionize water?

So, I went out this evening, drove back in the dark, and the halos were MUCH smaller than they had been the last couple of nights I was out recently. I attribute this to the fact that between yesterday and today I took something like 8 grams of Vitamin C and eyes require a tremendous amount of Vitamin C. It's also interesting that I had a craving for lemons during the contest when I wasn't drinking kombucha. And, it's interesting that I ran out of lemons a few days ago, just before the two "halo" nights. Also, the last carb food I ate before giving them all up was grapefruit, which has a decent amount of Vitamin C.

So, I think that I, just like Kristelle, am getting a marginal amount of Vitamin C in my animal-only diet and I'll investigate different ways to up the amount.

Here are some Vitamin C amounts from the USDA Nutrition Database:

1 small sweet red pepper - 94.5 mg
1 cup chopped kale - 80.4 mg
1 cup Grapefruit pieces - 71.8 mg
Juice of 1 lemon - 21.6 mg
318 grams of kombucha - 19 mg
100 grams raw beef liver - 1.3 mg

I've got some more experimenting to do but I've convinced myself that my animal-only diet isn't working for my body. For now I'll supplement. Later on I'll consider some food sources of Vitamin C.

Note that the body doesn't store Vitamin C; you need regular daily amounts of it.

~mina~ · Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:52 am Post subject:

Sol · Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Mina. Sunny

Kristelle · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:

Right now, what is clear for me is that I was deficient in iodine and Vitamin C. I don't think we need much of either. A little iodized sea salt and a couple of tomatoes with some lemon sprinkled on them is good enough.

Living in Canada and eating meat from animals that are mostly grain-fed, I also think supplementing with Vitamin D is necessary.
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"When you give up your dream, you die"

Dean · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject:

Kristelle, how do you get your D? Pills or some other way?
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Kristelle · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:18 am Post subject:

Pills.
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"When you give up your dream, you die"

Jessica · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:34 am Post subject:

FWIW, I take more supplements than I did. Some people don't seem to need them, I think I do as i've probably did a lot of damage and am not getting my nutrients from food. I feel much better eating carnivore than I did before without them. Vitamins, minerals, and fish oil.

Jessica
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Make yourself happy, don't rely on anyone else to do it. Be your own best friend.

Daryl · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:16 am Post subject:

Great topic, and it is something that has definitely been on my mind, too. If I go zero carb, it won't be with bleu meat, or organ meats, so that is a loss in nutrients right there.

Dean · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:32 am Post subject:

Daryl,

How 'bout joining the Rocky Raw Egg Challenge?! Grin

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about659.html
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Nicola · Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject:

http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion...showthread.php?tid=367&page=1

Post: #26RE: salt

MAC Wrote:
The Inuit people lived much of the year on coastal ice (which is partially desalinated sea water), and much of their food consisted of soup made with meat in a broth from this brackish source of water. When they went inland to hunt, they traditionally added caribou blood (also a rich source of sodium) to their soup. With these empirically derived techniques, the Inuit culture had adapted the available resources to optimize their intakes of both sodium and potassium."

Since I've been reading Not by Bread Alone which I hope to share with everyone very soon, I've learned so much more about the Inuit. Many researchers make statements about them without knowing the whole story. Stefansson notes in this book that there are some Inuit who did not eat caribou at all. They ate seal for the entire year. People were saying that the Mackenzie eskimos, with whom Stefansson spent much time, had good calcium because they ate bones. Their skeletons were on display in museums and it was reasonable for them to believe this. However, he states as follows:

Quote:
but there are
Eskimos who live practically exclusively on seal their whole
lives, and yet there is no indication while they live that they
are less healthy than the caribou eaters, nor do their skeletons
show a lack of calcium. Thus calcium deficiency is as
absent from those meat-eaters who practically never eat
bones as from those who eat them nearly every day of their
lives

Even the caribou eaters did not eat caribou all the time. They might have them one year and the next year, they might eat only seal.

Quote:
it can be stated simply and flatly that the man who
chews a lot of bones in a caribou-hunting year will chew no
bones at all in a sealing year

This makes my argument that we don't just get nutrients in our bodies based on what we eat. This whole notion got started when they examined people with deficiency diseases. They found them deficient in particular nutrients so therefore they assigned cause as saying that the subjects did not consume the nutrients. The truth is they only proved that certain foods can reverse the deficiency but they did not discover what caused the deficiency to begin with.

We find the same with cholesterol. Dr. Ravnskof cites studies that show that high total cholesterol serves to protect us from infection. If a person provides a lipid profile at the same time they are fighting off an infection, their cholesterol might be raised. This is in no way indicative of heart disease.

Researchers know that when a person is fighting off a disease, the body may lower its own iron levels to protect the body by keeping the illness from spreading. Adding iron by a supplement at this point would be harmful because one would be fighting against their own body. Iron is known to oxidize or "rust" things inside the body if taken beyond what the body requires.

Despite these repeated observations, we condinue to take multi-vitamins wily-nilly without regard to the nutrient balance in our bodies. We do so based on the fear that something may be missing from our "balanced diet." The whole "balanced diet" notion is a house of cards.

There is no doubt that low-fat dieters who only eat 2,000 calories or less and provide little fat for their bodies are deficient in nutrients. However, it's not because the food doesn't have the nutrients. It's because their bodies use those nutrients to process the unhealthy foods. The FDA has enriched every bit of food you can buy from candy bars to orange juice yet they still insist that people don't get enough vitamin this or that without taking into account the reason for the deficiencies. The nutrients are there but they are not being absorbed.

Taubes cited six studies in GCBC and in each of them deficiency diseases were brought on by carbohydrate-rich diets. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in animal studies as well. Deficiency diseases have never been shown on all-meat diets.

When addressing salt one should consider what causes them to be deficient in sodium or potassium. The solution may not be adding more sodium or potassium but removing those carbohydrates or perhaps even water that requires sodium or potassium to process it. If we provide too much sodium via the diet, the body may shut off its absorption of salt to compensate.

I don't konw the answer but I do know that for the last three weeks, I've been able to stretch in my bed without fear of cramping muscles and I've avoided salt.

Regards,

Charles

Nicola

Daryl · Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject:

Deb · Joined: 18 Nov 2008 Posts: 31 Gender: Female

I have the same worry about cataracts. My mother had them and the eye dr. said I am beginning to develop them.

Rose hips are another great source of vitamin C.

A Google search will turn up a lot of info regarding dietary uses of rose hips.
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Deb
175/120/<115

Lynne · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:35 am Post subject:

i'm bumping this thread up...

i'd like to know if any of the members are doing vitamins and/or supplements.. since we have a bunch of new members..

i myself do not take any v/s...
although i often wonder if i should..

any comments?
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"Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:42 am Post subject:

Lynne,

I wasn't taking anything, until I had that leg thingy, and then I started doing Cod Liver Oil, Fish Oil, Vitamin C, and a Multivitamin/mineral. None of these things helped my leg. Sad

I stopped taking these supps awhile ago, but, may take them just to use them up. Roll Eyes

Are they necessary for me to take?

Dunno

How would I know? Confused

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:55 am Post subject:

I was taking supplements until I started my experiment 9 days ago. I don't know if I am feeling any different from the lack of suppplements, or if it's just from adjusting to eating differently. I've been tired with increased muscle soreness. I do plan to add them back in at some point, and see how they affect me at all then. If there's not a negative reaction, I will probably go back to taking them. If anything, they provide me with psychological comfort. And I don't believe I take enough of anything for it to hurt.

I was taking a multi with extra B, calcium, potassium, C, and zinc. And occassional cranberry.

Dean, I took potassium for muscle aches and twitches when I first started low carb. I noticed a difference within a few days. I'm not sure if your leg thing is muscular or skeletal, but I thought you might find that interesting.
_________________
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin

Lynne · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:04 am Post subject:

i haven't experienced this much good feelings in i don't know how long...
i have this fear though....that as i approach menopause, i may lose calcium or other vital elements because of my age..

i just don't know whether i should do some pill popping.
i have all theses neat vitamins in a cupboard.. taking up a whole shelf.
i too wonder, if i should just use them to use them and not waste the money i spent on them...

thanks for the comments..
i'm in a quandry here.
_________________
"Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:07 am Post subject:

Karen, the leg thing is inflammation. Leg cramps can be cured with extra water consumption. The only reason for leg cramps is the electrolytes are thrown off balance due to rapid water loss/gain. Drinking extra water during times of going on or off carbs will help restore the electrolyte balance. Try it sometime. You don't need to take potassium for that.
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:09 am Post subject:

Thanks, I didn't realize that water would help that much. I had read somewhere that it was due to the potassium that goes out with the water. I'll try increasing my water and see if that does the trick!
_________________
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:23 am Post subject:

The balance gets messed up, because when the water leaves, it creates a gradient imbalance, therefore certain electrolytes (potassium for one) will move in or out of the cell, because the concentration is changed on one side of the cell membrane. That is all that is happening. If you drink water, you will help put the correct concentration back in place. Same thing if you have diarrhea. Your electrolyte balance will get thrown off, because you lose water very quickly when you have diarrhea. That's why you wanna drink tons of water if you do have diarrhea or are losing water due to glycogen stores rapidly changing. I've gotten massive leg cramps when carb binging for this very reason. Extra water always helps.
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:45 am Post subject:

Ahhhhhh. I get it. Scratch the potassium. I won't go back to that. Maybe I should list all the reasons why I take the rest? I would love to be edumacated Happy

on all this stuff if you don't mind.
The only ones I really would have a hard time giving up are the zinc and occasional cranberry. And the zinc I could just take occasionally. I take the zinc for my immune system. I take extra when I feel a cold or something coming on, and it clears up much quicker than if I don't take it. I have also not gotten sick when my kids were knocking on death's door with crap they picked up at school. This wasn't the case before I took it, and I've done plenty of experimenting with this one to see if it really works. I haven't had a bad cold in about two years, and that wasn't the case previously. I was always sick.

And the cranberry is for occasional urinary tract issues. I haven't had to take a prescription in years for bladder infections (I am prone to this since an abdominal infection years ago). When I feel it coming on, I take double doses of cranberry capsules for a few days and it clears right up.

The multi is just for peace of mind. Been doing that forever. Probably unnecessary. But the one with the extra B does boost my energy level some.

The calcium is for my bones. I have no idea if I need it or not, but I take it anyways, and have for a long time.

The vitamin C is also for boosting immune system. Again, maybe unnecessary, but I figure that if I have too much, I'll just pee it out anyways.

Gosh that all sounds like really dumb reasoning when I see it in type.

Thoughts, anyone?
_________________
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:50 am Post subject:

I know a fun way to get zinc. Devil

_________________
Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:52 am Post subject:

y0u do?! Please show and tell. Devil

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:56 am Post subject:

Karen,

The zinc and the B are not necessary, since red meat has a ton of both. In fact your immune system will be so good on this WOE that you won't need to worry much about getting sick. I've been around people who were very sick and never got anything, because my immune system is much better with ZC and with all the good animal food, including the animal fat. Carbs create inflammation that will inhibit your immune system, since it is so busy trying to deal with the influx of all the artificial/alien "food" most people consume. Did you read that article jeff just posted in the Cave?
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:58 am Post subject:

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:03 am Post subject:

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:04 am Post subject:

I did hear that paleoman's meat twinkie had a lot of zinc, but, I figured he was too spent to keep it up for all Bus members. The level of zinc, that is. Wink

God, I sure hope there aren't any children watching. Shock

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:07 am Post subject:

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:12 am Post subject:

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:13 am Post subject:

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:15 am Post subject:

Sounds like paleoman should be hauled off to the back of the Bus. Whip

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:19 am Post subject:

Yeah. He needs a Whip

and a spanking. Wink

_________________
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:20 am Post subject:

Some cartoon characters have all the luck! Devil

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:27 am Post subject:

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:29 am Post subject:

Don't y0u mean before y0u got naked? I've never seen paleoman clothed before! LOL

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:31 am Post subject:

Ah yes...sorry.
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Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:32 am Post subject:

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:35 am Post subject:

Is this one of those examples I've read about, of threads wandering completely off topic?! LOL

It's a tradition. Yup

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:38 am Post subject:

No, we're discussing Zinc. Grin

_________________
Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:40 am Post subject:

y0u's right, this is all in the name of science and better health. Wink

_________________
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:40 am Post subject:

Oh, OK. Zinc it is! Sorry, I got a bit distracted there for a second. Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:41 am Post subject:

Dean, y0u believe in Science....wanna be our Zinc experiment? Roll Eyes

_________________
Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:46 am Post subject:

That's a great idea. Are you up for it Dean? Devil

_________________
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:54 am Post subject:

I hear he has a twin....we could double our pleasure. Devil

_________________
Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat

Karen G · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:58 am Post subject:

_________________
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin

y0u · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:27 am Post subject:

Karen, I think we scared the poor man....he may be hiding UNDER the bus at this point. Wow

I have twin brothers though...you can borrow them, just don't tell their wives.
_________________
Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat

Dean · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:28 am Post subject:

Now I think I understand where we get the reputation of being a "dating service". LOL

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!