Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: What's the best way to build muscle?
I am currently very interested in building muscle, especially in my upper body. Was wondering what people's opinions are on what is the best way to do this?
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
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Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:47 am Post subject:
I've been reading more and more that fewer reps with heavier weights is best. Some say that if you can do more than 8-10 reps then you are not using enough weight. Just as with cardio, with resistance training you really need to challenge the body in order to get real benefit. Doing lots of reps with lighter weights would be the equivalent of walking or slow jogging for cardio. Better than nothing, but not as good as it could be. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:49 am Post subject:
So, do you agree with doing lots of sets with low reps with short rest periods between sets... and only doing 2 or 3 exercises per session? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:56 am Post subject:
Well, if you're using enough weight you shouldn't be able to do lots of sets.
I'm thinking 3 or 4 sets should do it.......and yes, with short rest periods between sets. I take 5 deep breaths for my rest period, which seems to work good for me. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:02 am Post subject:
I've read where doing lots of sets can help. So, what I have designed is doing 15 sets on one exercise, 10 sets on another, and 5 on another. Wanna mix it up, so that sometimes I bench for 15 sets x 5 reps, another time I bench 10 sets x 5 reps, and another time it will be 5 x 5. That will end up being the case with all my exercises.
Remember, I'm only going to do 5 reps per set. I'm gonna rest about 20 seconds between each set.
With abs, I'm gonna either do 5 sets of 10 reps or 10 sets of 5 reps.
Waddaya think about this?
BTW... how many exercises do you do in a session? How many sets x reps do you do on each one? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:19 am Post subject:
I still think if you can do 15 sets, then you would not be using enough weight. Your early sets would be way to easy if you can manage 15 sets. 5 reps would probably be fine, but you should barley be able to squeeze out those 5 reps.....and by the 3rd or 4th set you might be only able to manage 2 or 3 reps. That's my opinion, but I'm far from being an expert. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:26 am Post subject:
I agree with what you say about the reps.
But, I have heard that it can be a great fat burner/muscle builder to do lots of sets. I think you could still do heavy weights.
But, that is why I have decided at this point to do only one exercise with mega sets, and the other ones with less sets. Still trying to figure this out. And, this is one way of throwing an unknown to the body. That is one of the advantages of doing mega sets of one of the exercises. That's what I've read. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:34 am Post subject:
Give it a shot. Anything is probably pretty good. I think we're splitting hairs here. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:14 am Post subject:
OK, thanks for the suggestions, jeff.
What I've decided to do is three exercises per session, and do 5 reps per set max (may only get to 2 or 3), with about 20 seconds of rest between each set. Go fairly slow, focus on form and the target muscle, keep tension in the target muscle, and use really heavy weight. I'll do 5 sets for one exercise, 7 sets for another, and 10 sets for another. That should give me a nice mix. I will switch things up, so that each exercise gets either 5, 7, or 10 sets on different days. I'll see how this goes.
If anyone else has suggestions on what is best to get bigger, I'd appreciate it. I am really wanting to enlarge my upper body muscles. My leg muscles have always been large. I've always done lots of walking and hiking, and I guess that's why they have remained large. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject:
Quote:
What I've decided to do is three exercises per session, and do 5 reps per set max (may only get to 2 or 3), with about 20 seconds of rest between each set. Go fairly slow, focus on form and the target muscle, keep tension in the target muscle, and use really heavy weight. I'll do 5 sets for one exercise, 7 sets for another, and 10 sets for another. That should give me a nice mix. I will switch things up, so that each exercise gets either 5, 7, or 10 sets on different days. I'll see how this goes.
That sounds pretty good to me. Keep us posted on how it goes. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:37 am Post subject:
From looking further into this, I think I should really focus more on compound movement exercises, rather than so much on isolation exercises, at least in the beginning, to really build bulk and strength. Also, perhaps more of a full body workout each time. Never really been into resistance training for real... just the usual stuff that most people do, then get burned out on. This time, I really wanna do it right. Will have to keep researching it.
On the sets and reps question. I don't really think it matters. As long as you don't over train your muscles, you will make progress. Pushing things to failure is not a good idea. It is actually better to mix things up and do more frequent workouts, and sometimes do more sets/reps, and other times do less. It is very easy to get carried away with resistance training or cardio training, and overdo things. While you must challenge your body, it is important to allow it to grow, and not tear it down too much. You will compromise your immune system and central nervous system and won't make any real progress if you overtax yourself. While you do need to tear things down, you must be careful not to go too far. Your body will grow better if it doesn't have to deal with being over stressed.
I've heard it is best to train just to the brink of failure, but not to failure. Therefore, if you have been keeping track of what weight you can do, you could do as many sets and reps as you wanted/needed to, and it wouldn't matter. You would know how much weight to use for any situation... how much to use to do the sets/reps you want, without ever going to failure. You don't wanna go to failure, trust me. So, the weight might be lighter when doing more sets/reps, but so what? It's all relative to what you are progressing with each time you workout. You will still make progress, which is what is really important. You will actually make more progress if you are throwing your body off at times by doing higher volume training. Different muscle fibers require different amounts of reps, and rest in between sets, to grow. From what I have found out so far, for pure strength one should stick with low reps and longer rest periods, but for hypertrophy, low reps with heavy weights and short rest periods seems to work best.
It's really something to consider. You should aim for progress, not injury and unhealthy conditions by pushing yourself too hard. This balance of coaxing your body to growth, instead of forcing it, is very essential and should not be taken lightly. Most people fall into the bad habit of going too gung ho with exercise, and they either burn out, are counterproductive, or injure themselves. That is not going to achieve any real long term progress. There really is an art to being patient with progress, that if overlooked will be detrimental to achieving your fitness goals. In other words, don't just work hard... work smart. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:28 am Post subject:
Steve,
Thanks so much for your valuable input!
Steve wrote:
Dean,
First get rid of all isolation excercises..no leg extensions, leg curls,tricep pushdowns etc.
DONE! I've already decided to do just the basic compound movement exercises for now. I'm also going for some frequency, so I'm doing a full body workout at least 3 times per week, to hit all the muscles quite often.
Steve wrote:
for mass. do heavy weight,low reps,little rests between sets(30-60 seconds) for as many sets that you can while maintaining good form.
That may be 8 or as many as 20. I believe 10 sets of 3 are better than 3 sets of 10. You can put maximum effort into those 3 reps.. you can't for 10.
Yah... this is what I have wanted to start focusing on. Is there some validity in mixing in some sets with like 8 reps? Or is it as simple as doing low reps with longer rest periods for strength, and low reps with shorter rest periods for strength and size?
Steve wrote:
Keep cardio to a minimum.
How much per week? I love doing my HIIT, but I totally understand what you are suggesting here.
Steve wrote:
Don't forget..you gotta up them calories..fat and protein to build muscle.
Yah... I'm working on that. I keep thinking that if I add more calories, even though I'm so close to zero carb, I'm gonna just put on body fat, which I am trying to get rid of. I've heard that doing cardio will get rid of body fat, and so it is important... but, how much HIIT cardio can I do, and when is the optimal time to do it? I have been mulling over the idea of doing Resistance one day, Rest the next day, HIIT the next day... just keep rotating through these three like this. Waddaya think?
In today's bodybuilding culture, extremes have become the norm. It seems every so called guru is coming up with a new extreme diet, supplementation, or extreme workout. It seems everyone is trying to sell you some workout routine with a magic set and rep scheme. Some claim that you should only lift low reps because that is where the most overload occurs and where most strength gains are made.
Other routines claim that anything under 10 reps is a waist of time. Some even recommend repetition schemes as high as 100! So what's the dealio? Well, my mama always told me "moderation in everything" and by god she was right!
There is no magic rep scheme. ALL rep schemes have merit and all should be utilized in order to achieve maximal physique development. Let me explain how every rep scheme has its merit.
Low Reps:
Typically defined as anywhere from 1-5 reps, low reps place the most load on the muscles as you are able to handle the heaviest weights in this rep range. Other than placing a large load on the muscles, this rep scheme also has the advantage of activating ALL fiber types including the slow twitch fibers!
Now I'm sure you are thinking "wait a second, I've always been told you had to do high reps to activate slow twitch fibers."
WRONG!
Muscle fibers are recruited in order from: Slow... Intermediate... Fast
So if you are lifting a very heavy load, your muscles will recruit all the slow fibers first, if the tension they create is not sufficient to support the load, the intermediate fibers are then recruited, and if they can't cut it, the fast twitch are recruited.
So you can plainly see if you are lifting heavy loads you are maximally stimulating slow twitch fibers. Lower rep schemes & heavy loads also cause the stimulation of myofibrillar (the actual proteins that are responsible for contraction) protein synthesis better than any other rep scheme.
Furthermore, lifting in this rep range will yield great strength gains, which will enable you to use more weight in other rep ranges, thus overloading the muscle even further & causing greater hypertrophy.
Moderate Reps:
Typically defined as 6-12 reps, moderate rep schemes are sort of the jack of all trades, master of none. They have many of the benefits of the high rep schemes and many benefits of the low rep schemes. In peer review studies, it is this rep range that seems to consistently cause the most overall hypertrophy.
This is probably because the rep range is low enough to allow use of heavy loads, but enough reps are performed that the muscle is under tension for a longer period of time under the load than it would be in the low rep range. This should then result in the greater hypertrophic response.
High Reps:
Typically defined as anything around or above 15 reps. Now I know you are probably thinking "If low reps stimulate all the fibers, result in the best strength gains, and moderate reps result in the most hypertrophy, why in the world would I do high reps?"
Well high reps still have their merits. High repetitions cause massive glycogen depletion during the workout. The body will compensate for this in the post workout period by increasing the amount of glycogen the muscle stores.
Since glycogen is very hydrophilic, this extra glycogen will pull even more water into the cell (about 2.7g water/gram of glycogen). This increase in intracellular water is very anabolic as increased cell hydration induces increases in protein synthesis and also causes the cell to stretch.
Muscle cell stretching is one of the signals for cellular growth and if the stretch is forceful enough can induce the release of growth factors.
AND
Quote:
Bodybuilders have known intuitively for decades that high volume training is the quickest way to big muscles. When bodybuilding split from Olympic weightlifting in the 1940s, most serious musclemen began training with higher reps and multiple sets. It's not because they "felt like it". It's because they saw that it worked.
Exercise science has come a long way since the 1940s. It's no longer a matter of "seeing is believing". We're now able to pinpoint why higher reps and multiple sets work so well at a biological level.
I'll begin by summarizing (briefly) how weight training makes muscles grow.
Muscle growth (hypertrophy) is caused by a buildup of proteins. Protein buildup can happen in three ways:
The amount of protein going into the muscle increases
The amount of protein wasted from the muscle decreases
Both 1 and 2
Weight training causes microtrauma (tiny tears in muscle fibres). The body responds to the damage by increasing the amount of protein going into the muscles. This continues for up to two days after weight training.
The rate of repair and muscle growth is also positively affected by testosterone and other hormones. Weight training increases the release of these muscle-building hormones in your body.
The rate of hypertrophy that occurs during this "healing" process depends on the type of muscle fibre involved. Fast twitch fibres respond better than slow twitch fibres. Individuals with more fast twitch fibres will grow bigger, quicker.
Training for Ultimate Size
There is an inverse link between strength gains and hypertrophy. When you lift weights, your muscles learn to work better (through neural adaptation) and you become stronger. However, your body recruits less muscle fibre the more it adapts. And the less muscle fibre you stimulate, the less you grow.
Trained Olympic lifters, for example, were shown over a two-year period to have significant strength increases with barely noticeable increases in muscle mass. I had a similar experience when I used AST's Max-OT principals. My strength went up like crazy, but I gained very little size.
Obviously, traditional strength training with low volume and low sets (1-6 reps, 3 or less sets) is not the best approach. Strength training does cause hypertrophy, but it won't cause maximum hypertrophy.
High volume, multiple set programs (6-12 reps, 3 to 6 sets) have been shown to create greater hypertrophy for two important reasons:
The higher workload is more effective at creating microtrauma because of the extra time under tension and extra number of fibres recruited.
High volume, multiple set programs are more effective at increasing the body's production of testosterone and growth hormone.
Microtrauma stimulates increased protein synthesis, and muscle growth is positively affected by a number of hormones that are released after weight training. High volume, multiple set programs cause more microtrauma and greater hormone secretion-so the end result is more muscle!
Now, there's one thing you should be aware of. High volume and multiple sets might pack on muscle quickly, but you shouldn't ONLY train this way. There's something called the "general adaptation syndrome", which means your body will adapt to the program very quickly and you'll run into a massive plateau.
An effective science-based way to pack on muscle quickly is to use a periodised routine that emphasizes high volume and multiple sets. The periodic variation lets you alter the sets and reps of the program to boost muscle growth and recovery. Sets and reps can be varied per exercise, per workout or per week.
HST is an example of a routine that periodises on a per-exercise basis (i.e. HST uses rep ranges between 2-15 for every exercise). I made good size gains using HST, but I didn't become a big fan of using such varied rep ranges each workout. I thought I could have been more productive. To me, HST felt like doing two half-arsed workouts in one session, with one aimed at hypertrophy and the other targeting strength.
Then I started periodising on a per-workout basis. I now workout with a 2:1 hypertrophy:strength rotation. This means that I do 2 hypertrophy workouts (8-12 reps, 6 sets) for every 1 strength workout (4-6 reps, 3 sets). It looks like a little something like this:
Monday
Hypertrophy
Thursday
Hypertrophy
Monday
Strength
Got the idea? I've found that, by using the 2:1 rotation, I can give maximal attention to training each characteristic. Emphasizing high volume, multiple set training gives me the quickest progression in muscle size.
Slotting in a strength day helps me lift more on my hypertrophy days. Lifting more weight for higher reps makes my muscles bigger. And so the circle of growth continues!
I have read on other sites that mixing some 6-12 rep range sets in with the low rep sets is helpful for ultimate hypertrophy.
So... what do you think of this, Steve? Feel free to tear this stuff apart!
I'm just trying to learn about this stuff, and integrate it into my scheme, as rapidly as I can. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Yeah. Isolation movements are really not useful until you've put on some size. And then its only if you're interested in developing symmetry and/or bringing up a lagging body part.
Compound movements are best as they allow you to push the most weight and they utilize more muscle groups.
More bang for your buck as it were.
My recommendation is:
dips
chins
curls
military presses
some sort of ab work
squats
deadlifts
calf raises on a 4" wood block
some sort of ab work
If you can tolerate doing all of these in one sessions...go for it. If not, do it in an upper/lower body split fashion.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:21 am Post subject:
Hey, Dan!
Thanks a million for the advice.
I am gonna focus on these types of exercises for the next couple months.
I checked out that blog. I especially like this:
Quote:
Saxon never had just one training program. He would vary his routines constantly and never had a set regimen.
That's exactly what I've been trying to do.
I've got a park a 1/2 mile away that has a lot of bars at a workout station along the running trail. I can do dips and chins and pullups and pushups, etc. And, I just acquired some free weights and a bench. So, I'm gonna be rockin' on with Resistance Training!
Thanks again. Good to see ya on the Bus! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject:
Yah, I've seen those. I'm not EVEN there, yet! But, I'll let ya'll know when I am.
Thanks, Dan. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
If you aren't strong enough to do full dips and chins, start off doing them in a negative fashion only.
That is, do only the lowering phase and try to take 10 seconds to do it. Aim for 10 or so reps with just enough of a breather to get back into the top positions. When you can go over 10, add some weight to yourself(5% or so is a good increment to try.) Before you know it, you'll be able to do full dips and chins.
I tend to prefer "self spotting" exercises where I can go heavy without dropping metal things on my chest/face/neck if I miss a rep.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:40 am Post subject:
Hey, Dan. Because of your suggestions, I decided to go ahead and get me a dip/pull-up station for my workout room. Doesn't take much space and doesn't cost much money. I can do regular, or wide pull-ups, chins, dips, push-ups, vertical knee raises, etc. I'm really glad I'm gonna get this thing!
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
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