Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: 30 Day Metabolic Advantage Movement Experiment
30 Day Metabolic Advantage Movement Experiment
I need some feedback on how to go about this.
On January 4, 2008, I'm gonna start this, and I'm gonna stick to it for 30 days. That is after all the holidays, including my birthday. It will require me to give up coffee and wine, and spices and all of that for 30 days. But, I'm willing to do it. Somebody's got to. It's gonna be brutal, but it's all in the name of science, ya know.
So, any ideas? And, anyone wanna join me? Come on jeff. You could use the detox.
The idea will be to do only animal flesh and fat. Not even organs or eggs. Wanna get carbs as close to absolute zero as possible, and do a minimum of 5,000 calories a day, with fat being at least 80%. Daily stats, including food intake, calories, macro ratios, weight and body fat readings, will be posted. In April I did 15 days, and so I am sure this can be done for 30 days.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject:
...err, I volunteer to cheer with greatest enthusiasm from the sidelines!
But seriously, Dean, if you can do this, it would be the ultimate challenge, and an absolute source of continual inspiration and hope to every one of us!!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:21 am Post subject:
Billi-Jean! I thought for sure you'd join me in this!
I may make it a stipulation that at least four others have to join me. Otherwise, Colpo will denounce this experiment for not having a big enough sample size! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:59 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Billi-Jean! I thought for sure you'd join me in this!
..err yes, Dean, but did I forget to mention ??
Dean wrote:
I may make it a stipulation that at least four others have to join me. Otherwise, Colpo will denounce this experiment for not having a big enough sample size!
...I'm sure he'd denounce it anyway, just coz you didn't get his approval first! Then again, maybe if we all promise to buy his book ...
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:06 am Post subject:
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 5981 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:34 am Post subject:
Billi-Jean wrote:
Dean wrote:
Billi-Jean! I thought for sure you'd join me in this!
..err yes, Dean, but did I forget to mention ??
Dean wrote:
I may make it a stipulation that at least four others have to join me. Otherwise, Colpo will denounce this experiment for not having a big enough sample size!
...I'm sure he'd denounce it anyway, just coz you didn't get his approval first! Then again, maybe if we all promise to buy his book ...
And, it's not being done in a metabolic ward. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:06 am Post subject:
So, no takers, huh?
I think we can all put to rest the calorie question.
Calories do count. Totally. Even when doing absolute zero carb.
I'm glad that is settled. I was really not looking forward to putting on more body fat.
So, what other experiments should we try? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject:
I already know how it would turn out. I'd just gain a bunch of unnecessary body fat. No thanks. And, I'm sure that is the reason you are afraid to do this with me. You know you'd gain too, and you don't want to sabotage your efforts. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 5981 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
I already know how it would turn out. I'd just gain a bunch of unnecessary body fat. No thanks. And, I'm sure that is the reason you are afraid to do this with me. You know you'd gain too, and you don't want to sabotage your efforts.
Nope. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject:
Neither do I.
So, I guess we'll have to come up with more interesting experiments. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 5981 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Neither do I.
So, I guess we'll have to come up with more interesting experiments.
No, I meant that wasn't the reason. However, I'm all in favor of any experiments that involve this guy! _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
No, I meant that wasn't the reason.
Well then, pray tell, what is?
Remember, I already did this for 15 straight days, and there were so many that started out with me, but bailed after like one day. It was lonely doin' it all alone. So, if I gotta do this for 30 days, I want some company, dammit!
Anyway, it's the only way we can put this shit to rest. If two (or more?) of us do a 30 day zero carb deal, and we overeat calories, but we lose weight, wouldn't that be somethin'? Shit, Stefansson did it for a fricken year! What's one month? What if we included eggs, butter, or what have you. I'm open to suggestions. I was just making an initial suggestion, to open it up for discussion. We can find some common ground to do this.
Main point is, we have to keep it at extremely close to zero carb. I think eggs would be fine and unsalted butter, but not cheese. We have to keep salt and carbs out of the equation. Just see if when people remove all carbs and salt, then the calorie theory falls on it's ass, and the "futile cycle" theory or whatever takes over.
You'd be a good subject, and by then, I would be pretty keto adapted as well, so we would have a good base to start with. We can keep calories like at 4,000 or something like that... or even 3,000 with NO exercise. That would still prove things one way or the other.
Come on, jeff. You can do 30 days if I can. I'm a fricken sugar addict, and I'm willing to do it. I think we could probably convince Rich, Jake, Red, BJ, Dave, Heather, and others to jump in with us. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject:
OK. Great!
Come on, all you adventurous Bus members. Let us know if you are in on this historical experiment. It is not really that bad, once you get your mind around it. You should work up to it at first, to get more keto adapted before starting, and to get rid of glycogen stores (water weight). Then, there won't be anyone saying "well, they just lost a bunch of water weight", or if we gain weight, don't want people to say, well it's cuz of the minor carbs in this or that. For this to really work, we gotta remove all the potential problems that people will most certainly point to... especially people like our dear friend AC. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject:
I've already done it for a week, so I have a head start on you Dean. I've had an average of 2600 calories, 80% fat for the last week (and remember, I'm much smaller than you guys) and I haven't gained an ounce yet. And that's an average. It hasn't been less than 2400, but some days has been almost 3000. No exercise.
Oh, and it hasn't been lonely. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:58 am Post subject:
Red
So, since it may be kinda hard to coordinate a group experiment, and seeing how we don't really wanna park this Bus at some metabolic ward , perhaps we can just use this thread as an ongoing experiment.
I'm not ready yet, but I will be fairly soon.
So, what exactly are you eating? Any trace carbs, spices, chemicals or such?
Maybe once someone changes their metabolic and hormonal environment, then they can have more calories in, cuz the calories out are gonna be more. In other words, if one eats like our ancestors, then their body will simply adjust their metabolism to burn up all the calories they put in... so, in = out. In and out of the blackbox.
Things that make one go ... and AC go ballistic! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:54 am Post subject:
I was eating meat for the first 2 days, but for the last 5 it's been eggs and copious amounts of butter, only. Like 3 scrambled eggs with 3 T. softened butter stirred in, in a go. One day I had some full-fat goat yogurt which was a bit carby (no ill effect, other than some bloating and gas ). And yesterday I had a business lunch, so on top of the omelette I ate (gruyere cheese and asparagus), there was a small mixed green salad and some chicken liver pate to start. The pate had a small celery root salad with it, too. Actually, I ate more veg yesterday in that lunch than I have in the past 6 months, probably. OMG the gas. I won't even go there. I'm only now recovering. But still no weight gain. Normally the 20 -30 or so carbs that I ate yesterday would cause a somewhat significant gain, but with the extra fat I've been eating, my metabolism is such right now that it totally compensated for them.
I have abandoned IF for this experiment, as I can't possibly eat 2600 calories of mostly fat in one meal. Again, no weight gain, even with the extra meals and the extra calories. Typically, I'd eat about 1400 calories in a day and maintain at that, so I'm eating almost double what I normally would. Note that I haven't increased protein. Just the fat. My protein intake is actually a bit lower than normal, at roughly 70 g/day.
The reason I'm doing this was to get my metabolism really fired up so that I can attempt to drop a bit of weight by resuming my regular diet. I only have about 10 lbs that I'd like to lose and it's not urgent. I've been static at my current weight (145 lbs) for a year and can only seem to lose if I reduce my calories to uncomfortably low levels. We'll see! I have no idea if it will work. Oh and I'm also doing this because it's fun to really gorge on fat occasionally. I love to eat straight butter, so it's been a nice treat for me. I never limited fat before, per se, but I ate more protein and limited calories, somewhat. So therefore, my fat was never usually more than 100 g day, if that. _________________ Red
Both MD and I have had patients who complained to us that they were following our program to the letter and weren’t losing any weight. When we asked them for their diet diaries we found that they were consuming huge amounts of food but were rigorously keeping their carbs below 30 grams per day. Sometimes we calculated that these patients were eating 4000+ kcal per day, which could have even been higher given that patients tend to under report what they eat instead of over reporting. What was amazing to us was that they weren’t gaining. They were pretty much maintaining their weight on an enormous number of low-carb calories.
Looks like this challenge might stand a chance anyway
Both MD and I have had patients who complained to us that they were following our program to the letter and weren’t losing any weight. When we asked them for their diet diaries we found that they were consuming huge amounts of food but were rigorously keeping their carbs below 30 grams per day. Sometimes we calculated that these patients were eating 4000+ kcal per day, which could have even been higher given that patients tend to under report what they eat instead of over reporting. What was amazing to us was that they weren’t gaining. They were pretty much maintaining their weight on an enormous number of low-carb calories.
Looks like this challenge might stand a chance anyway
There is no doubt in my mind that if a person keeps carbs to a bare minimum, no fat will be stored, even with an extra 1000-2000 calories per day. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that if a person keeps carbs to a bare minimum, no fat will be stored, even with an extra 1000-2000 calories per day.
It looks like the type of dietary fat might determine how easily it's stored, as well. Check out this study. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/26/2/197.pdf The people-losing-weight-on-a-low-carb-high-fat-diet part is old-hat. But the average-carb-diet-and-tons-and-tons-of-fat experiment is very interesting. It's looking like olive oil = not so great. Makes sense, considering how high in insulin-raising phenolic compounds it is. But the linoleic acid link is new, to me. _________________ Red
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 5981 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject:
Interesting Red. Thanks. I only skimmed it. Maybe I'll give it a more thorough reading later. One thing that caught my eye though, was that people only gained a small amount of weight eating I believe about 6000 calories per day and consuming 50-60g of carbs. A much smaller gain than what would have been expected. I suspect that if those carbs were lowered to say 5-10g per day, there likely would have been no gain.
Seems to me that the higher the calories, the lower the carbs need to be to not gain fat. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Last edited by jeff on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 5981 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject:
Damn, I'm such a sucker for these experiments. I'll probably do it. I'll tentatively look at Dec. 1 as my start date.
So Dean, do you think 4000 cal. on exercise days, and 3000 on no exercise days sounds ok? My average daily requirement would seem to be around 2500 calories. So if we average about an extra 1000 calories per day, that would be an extra 30,000 calories in a month, which should result in about an 8.5 pound fat gain. If not, then I would definitely call that a metabolic advantage!
On the other hand, no cheese or wine for a month? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 5981 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject:
Red wrote:
I lost a pound overnight.
I'm not surprised. I've done this experiment for 7 days twice. Once with lowish protein, and once with high protein. On low protein I lost 1 pound. On high protein I lost 2 pounds. Both times consuming over 4000 calories per day.
Dean, would that count as a 14 day experiment? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Damn, I'm such a sucker for these experiments. I'll probably do it. I'll tentatively look at Dec. 1 as my start date.
So Dean, do you think 4000 cal. on exercise days, and 3000 on no exercise days sounds ok? My average daily requirement would seem to be around 2500 calories. So if we average about an extra 1000 calories per day, that would be an extra 30,000 calories in a month, which should result in about an 8.5 pound fat gain. If not, then I would definitely call that a metabolic advantage!
On the other hand, no cheese or wine for a month?
jeff, if I were you I would welcome the chance to get off booze for one month. Seriously, alcoholism can creep up on anyone. You don't wanna develop a habit like that, trust me. So, jumpin' off the stuff for one month would be a really good idea. I did 15 days with just clean cuts of beef, pork and water. It was hard, but doable. I would love it if there were several of us that did 30 days and we could see what the results were. I think gettin' the glycogen stores out first is necessary before starting the 30 days. That's what I'm workin' on now. I don't want to skew the results from water weight loss.
Anyway, I'm open to more suggestions on this whole thing. One of the most interesting things that happened to me on that 15 day experiment was the no elimination thing. That was downright weird. But, it made sense in a way, cuz my intestines were absorbing all the nutrients from the animal flesh and fat. Would be interesting to see if this happens to others.
If you wanna really test your will, and totally detox your system, this is the thing to do. Treat your body and mind at the same time. And, lend more credence to the Metabolic Advantage Movement. Hey, it'll drive AC completely over the edge! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
There is no doubt in my mind that if a person keeps carbs to a bare minimum, no fat will be stored, even with an extra 1000-2000 calories per day.
It looks like the type of dietary fat might determine how easily it's stored, as well. Check out this study. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/26/2/197.pdf The people-losing-weight-on-a-low-carb-high-fat-diet part is old-hat. But the average-carb-diet-and-tons-and-tons-of-fat experiment is very interesting. It's looking like olive oil = not so great. Makes sense, considering how high in insulin-raising phenolic compounds it is. But the linoleic acid link is new, to me.
Fat is stored as a triglyceride in the human body and contains more monounsaturated fat than anything else. Olive oil is an ideal choice for weight gain. Polyunsaturates do not make up much of our fat tissue (though they will make up more if we consume more of them, the fats you eat can somewhat alter the fats you store). While our body is capable of desaturating fatty acids, it cannot make them more saturated, hence polyunsats will not be stored to a great extent, no matter what.
About fat tissues though, its worth considering that most supermarket animal meat is high in veggie fats, because of what they are fed at factories. Pork fat can be 30% polyunsaturated, compared with 6-8% normally.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject:
Wow. Now we're gonna have to make that grass fed organic beef and pork? This challenge is gettin' harder all the time! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject:
To do my part in helping to drive AC into a tightly-controlled locked-down mental-bollix ward ...
I've renamed this thread 30 Day Metabolic Advantage Movement Experiment _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
There is no doubt in my mind that if a person keeps carbs to a bare minimum, no fat will be stored, even with an extra 1000-2000 calories per day.
Jeff, unless you're a mutant, you'll gain weight doing that for a month.
And if you are such a mutant, I'm envious as hell. _________________ Viking Dan
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Artwork, code and other atrocities at www.vikingdan.com
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Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:58 am Post subject:
Doesn't Eades say if you don't create a caloric deficit, you won't lose weight? You won't gain it, but you won't lose it, either.
So, if that's true, then won't we all just keep our weight the same if we eat extra calories during a month of zero carb?
Problem is... I wanna lose some body fat, dammit! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:46 am Post subject:
Red wrote:
It looks like the type of dietary fat might determine how easily it's stored, as well. Check out this study. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/26/2/197.pdf The people-losing-weight-on-a-low-carb-high-fat-diet part is old-hat. But the average-carb-diet-and-tons-and-tons-of-fat experiment is very interesting. It's looking like olive oil = not so great. Makes sense, considering how high in insulin-raising phenolic compounds it is. But the linoleic acid link is new, to me.
Can't help wondering, though, if the chronic imbalance of O6:O3 is as inflammatory as we often hear (as well as the multitude of other ill-effects it purportedly can cause), what might the longer term effect be...?
About 98% of the total polyunsaturates in corn oil are Omega 6, with 2% or so being Omega 3's!! ...that's not quite the 2:1 ratio we so often hear we should aim for
Damn, all these pesky details!!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:41 am Post subject:
Well, you know what I always say... animal fat is where it's at! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject:
Billi-Jean wrote:
Red wrote:
It looks like the type of dietary fat might determine how easily it's stored, as well. Check out this study. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/26/2/197.pdf The people-losing-weight-on-a-low-carb-high-fat-diet part is old-hat. But the average-carb-diet-and-tons-and-tons-of-fat experiment is very interesting. It's looking like olive oil = not so great. Makes sense, considering how high in insulin-raising phenolic compounds it is. But the linoleic acid link is new, to me.
Can't help wondering, though, if the chronic imbalance of O6:O3 is as inflammatory as we often hear (as well as the multitude of other ill-effects it purportedly can cause), what might the longer term effect be...?
About 98% of the total polyunsaturates in corn oil are Omega 6, with 2% or so being Omega 3's!! ...that's not quite the 2:1 ratio we so often hear we should aim for
Damn, all these pesky details!!
I know. I definitely wouldn't take up eating tons of PUFAs because of that study, just to lose weight. It does scare me. Although I think about the idea of eating tons of lard, for example (which is also very high in MUFAs) and think that maybe it's a bit easier to store, too, since it's so similar to human fat.
Butter has been my main fat source since starting my little experiment. Again: _________________ Red
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject:
Red wrote:
Butter has been my main fat source since starting my little experiment. Again:
mmmm....butter!! Let's just forget the damn scientass' contradictory details (who needs the added stress-induced cortisol surges from trying to keep up with their ever-changing "conclusions" anyway! )
As I'm sure you'd agree, all I know is when I lightly fry up some eggs, just til the whites set and then pour lashings of melted butter over them, then squish the oozy liquid yolks and mash the whites in with all that butter and gobble it all up...oh boy, it's like a symphony goes off in my head!! I've never met a vegie oil that made the little grey cells sing like that!!
The health-benefits of that alone must count for something... hey, there's a thought -how about we publish our own Magic Bus groundbreaking research paper, titled:
"Beneficial Neuro-Endocrine Cascade Responses to Consumption of Butter Linked to Increased Health and Longevity" -by Dr. Beaubutter, Dr. DaMeat and Dr. Good-Eggedness
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject:
In the final analysis, everyone of us has no choice but to just go with whatever we think is correct, which is based on our own empirical experiences, and our own beliefs about reality, like evolution, and other logical assumptions. For me, it really is that simple. Some things just make more sense to me than others. So, in the vast scheme of things, I will believe Sally Fallon and the WAPF, Bear, Atkins, Eades, and the list goes on... MAINLY cuz their stuff jives with what I believe about evolution. I probably base about 99% of what I accept about proper nutrition on what I think our genes were created (through evolution) to deal with. So, I think about the environment those genes must have evolved in.
Is it possible to go outside those parameters? Of course. Just how far is up to one's personal experimentations. All the scientific studies in the world are not going to change one's own experience with how they react to a certain substance. If eating certain things gives one major problems, they will probably avoid it. Other than that, I think one should just trust in the process, and experiment with it to see where it leads. For me, that is carnivorous eating. I truly believe in it, and am willing to keep going in this direction to find out how I do long term. I find it very hard to believe that animal fat is going to hurt me, since I strongly believe that my genes are diggin' it, and saying "it's about time".
That is why I wanna take the simple route to nutrition...
So, I will say once again... animal fat is where it's at!
So much research is based on $$$$$$$$$. Not all that scientific, if you ask me. I agree with Billi-Jean, we need to do our own Magic Bus groundbreaking research papers... we can base it on the knowledge we get from drinking Kool-Aid. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject:
Well whatever it is that I'm doing must be working because I'm down another half pound today and that's after having 2700 calories yesterday. I thought this method would be useful to rev up my metabolism so that when I returned to my usual way of eating, I'd lose some weight - but little did I know, I'd lose weight while actually overeating. My tummy is flat, too, so I'm not at all bloated or not digesting the fat. Everything is functioning perfectly. _________________ Red
Well whatever it is that I'm doing must be working because I'm down another half pound today and that's after having 2700 calories yesterday. I thought this method would be useful to rev up my metabolism so that when I returned to my usual way of eating, I'd lose some weight - but little did I know, I'd lose weight while actually overeating. My tummy is flat, too, so I'm not at all bloated or not digesting the fat. Everything is functioning perfectly.
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject:
Average calories have been 2400 for the last 10 days (I had one day with not very much appetite, so I could only eat about 1400), but the other days have been closer to 2700. Average macros are: Fat = 235 g Protein = 60 g Carb = 10 g. My typical day before that was 1200 - 1400 calories, with 100 g protein, 5 - 10 g carb and much much less fat.
Most of what I've been eating is eggs and butter. The carbs are mostly from eggs. I had one day that I mentioned above where I had some vegetables and liver, but aside from that, no significant carb source other than eggs. Eggs just really absorb fat really well and I tolerate them very well, so they're a great food for me for this experiment. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject:
So is Eades wrong? Can a person actually lose body fat while eating excess calories? I understand that they won't gain anything, but I thought it was not possible to lose unless one created a caloric deficit.
I will have to get FitDay setup and get ready to go on my part of this experiment. So, jeff, are ya gettin' ready to plunge in with me? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject:
Yesterday I ate only in the evening, and only once. I had about 10-12oz of pork belly. I could have easily eaten much more.
20oz of pork belly is nearly 3,000 calories!
92% fat - 8% protein - absolute zero carb
34% sat fat - 10% poly fat - 43% mono fat (for what it's worth)
jeff, go get some pork belly. It's extremely easy to roast. And, it will be so easy to get extra calories from. And, of course, it's oh so wonderfully good!
Red, how many carbs are in the seasonings and in those dips? Any? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject:
They do add up. I haven't actually programmed in any specific recipes into fitday - I just estimate the amount of spice and add in the amount of vinegar and/or green onion in each meal, depending on what I've used each time. I don't often use the seasonings, though. I usually have it plain with just salt. That's why I don't bother programming anything in. _________________ Red
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
So is Eades wrong? Can a person actually lose body fat while eating excess calories? I understand that they won't gain anything, but I thought it was not possible to lose unless one created a caloric deficit.
I have no idea. All I know is what's going on for me, right now. Maybe it's just that the metabolic advantage is much greater than he believes. I'm definitely eating more than 300 calories above what my body needs to maintain, considering I was not losing weight and maintaining just fine eating 1300 calories a day. I have no idea if those pounds I'm losing are fat, or what. All I know is that I'm not gaining, that's for sure. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject:
I'm willing to experiment with eating at least 1,200 extra calories every day, which would add up to at least a 10 lb gain over the 30 days. If I actually lose some pounds during these 30 days, then there is certainly a metabolic advantage that is greater than anyone believes. I may have to eat eggs and butter as well as pork fat to get that many calories in. I plan to be as sedentary as possible during those days. Just trying to eliminate all the factors one can point to and say "it's cuz of this or that reason you were able to do that". _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject:
Well, I can't promise to be as ridiculously high in calories as I have been every single day for a whole month. Like I said, I had a day where I just couldn't stomach it and only got in 1400 calories and even that was a stretch. There will be other days like that, I'm sure. But I'm going to keep this up until it's evident to me that I should stop. It's nice not having to go hungry or worry about calories, for once. I'm really wanting to re-train my metabolism to function properly, which it hasn't been. It's also been really nice not being really cold all the time anymore. I'll note again that I haven't gone nuts with protein - the added calories are from fat alone. In fact, my protein has been lower than usual - I've only been consuming 60 g/day, which is only my RDA. Once my metabolism is back in fighting shape, I'll probably cycle calories to lose any remaining weight I have to lose (about 8 lbs to go) and go back to IF, as I really enjoy it.
I'll keep reporting here while I'm doing this, though, so you can all see my progression. _________________ Red
Come on, all you adventurous Bus members. Let us know if you are in on this historical experiment. It is not really that bad, once you get your mind around it. You should work up to it at first, to get more keto adapted before starting, and to get rid of glycogen stores (water weight). Then, there won't be anyone saying "well, they just lost a bunch of water weight", or if we gain weight, don't want people to say, well it's cuz of the minor carbs in this or that. For this to really work, we gotta remove all the potential problems that people will most certainly point to... especially people like our dear friend AC.
I would volunteer but I don't think I could even come close to eating that many calories.
So is Eades wrong? Can a person actually lose body fat while eating excess calories? I understand that they won't gain anything, but I thought it was not possible to lose unless one created a caloric deficit.
I will have to get FitDay setup and get ready to go on my part of this experiment. So, jeff, are ya gettin' ready to plunge in with me?
Maybe Eades is right and wrong. Maybe those people weren't gaining any weight but maybe if they had dropped their carbs even lower close to 0 they would have lost.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:01 am Post subject:
Kim wrote:
Dean wrote:
OK. Great!
Come on, all you adventurous Bus members. Let us know if you are in on this historical experiment. It is not really that bad, once you get your mind around it. You should work up to it at first, to get more keto adapted before starting, and to get rid of glycogen stores (water weight). Then, there won't be anyone saying "well, they just lost a bunch of water weight", or if we gain weight, don't want people to say, well it's cuz of the minor carbs in this or that. For this to really work, we gotta remove all the potential problems that people will most certainly point to... especially people like our dear friend AC.
I would volunteer but I don't think I could even come close to eating that many calories.
Kim
Kim,
I hear ya. I have been finding it really hard myself. I am not sure how to even go about it. But, I do know one person who could probably give us some tips.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
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I'm a fricken sugar addict, and I'm willing to do it. I think we could probably convince Rich, Jake, Red, BJ, Dave, Heather, and others to jump in with us. 
... and AC go ballistic! 
). And yesterday I had a business lunch, so on top of the omelette I ate (gruyere cheese and asparagus), there was a small mixed green salad and some chicken liver pate to start. The pate had a small celery root salad with it, too. Actually, I ate more veg yesterday in that lunch than I have in the past 6 months, probably. OMG the gas. I won't even go there. I'm only now recovering. But still no weight gain. Normally the 20 -30 or so carbs that I ate yesterday would cause a somewhat significant gain, but with the extra fat I've been eating, my metabolism is such right now that it totally compensated for them.
I'll tentatively look at Dec. 1 as my start date.
