Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: Pooti's Metabollic Experiment
Introduction:
Hi everyone I'm starting this thread to track my progress over the next few weeks. I'm going to be trying some variations of the ZCarnivore method of eating in order to understand why I am not seeing the weight loss I need to see.
I have been eating under 5g/day from a meat, fat, butter, cheese, egg, decaf coffee menu for the last 3 weeks. Weight loss has been very slow and I've actually been gaining over the last few days. I eat when hungry but I eat a lot. I eat extra fat as well as big portions of protein. I have noticed a 14point spike in blood sugar 3 hours after meals. Now 14points isn't huge but the insulin spike underneath that is probably very big.
I had wine last night for the first time since New Years Eve. This morning I'm up almost 2lbs. :-/ Meh.
Here are my new rules for zero carnivoring:
1. I will eat 3 meals per day totalling 1800-1900 kcals/day with 80% cals from fat & 20% cals from protein. Each meal with have that approximate composition.
2. Set amounts at each meal: (i.e. I'm shooting for 20g of protein at breakfast, 30-35g protein for each of the two remaining meals).
3. Snacking will be allowed if absolutely necessary but it too will have to follow the rules of 80/20 the snack will have to be subtracted out of my daily nutrient allowance so that I'm still trying to hit the 1800-1900kcal daily target.
4. I am going to cut way the heck back on salt until I can completely cut it out in order to have a minimum of weight fluctuation from fluid retention. (I think I'm pretty susceptible to fluid retention.)
5. I will use spices and herbs in moderation.
6. No booze/wine.
7. I will eat anything I want from meats/seafood, butter, fats, eggs, cured meats (yep that will add salt so will look for the low sodium kind).
8. I will keep my carbs under 5 and as close to 0 as possible.
9. I will have 2-3 cups of water decaffeinated coffee, black per day.
10. If I have to take sf cough medicine for this cough I'm still fighting, I will do it but it will be a rarity and a minimum. Same thing goes with sf cough drops. (Those would be the only occurance of as products. )
11. The only other liquid I will consume will be water.
*****************************
Today is my first day. I will post my menus either at the end of the night or the following morning along with the Fitday nutrients and %ages. I will follow this plan for 2 weeks to see what kind of progress I have. By calculating my protein needs using Jenny's calculator here is what I know:
Healthy Nutrient Levels for Your Ketogenic Low Carb Diet
Your Height: 65.5 inches
Your Current Weight: 282 pounds
Your Age: 46
Your Gender: Female
Your Activity Level: Sedentary with Metabolic Advantage
Your Calculated Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR): 1,929
Activity Factor Used to Compute Activity Calories from BMR: 1.43
TO MAINTAIN YOUR CURRENT WEIGHT:
To maintain your body weight eat 2,759 calories.
You have decided to eat 2 grams of carbohydrate a day.
To avoid loss of muscle mass you must eat 150 grams of high quality protein each day. This can be found in 24.9 ounces of meat, eggs, or hard cheese.
Round out your diet with 239 grams of fat.
TO LOSE WEIGHT:
To lose a pound a week safely decrease your daily intake to 2,259 calories.
You have decided to eat 2 grams of carbohydrate a day. To avoid loss of lean muscle mass you must eat 150 grams of high quality protein each day. This can be found in 24.9 ounces of meat, eggs, or hard cheese.
Round out your diet with 184 grams of fat.
To lose 2 lbs per week, reduce fat calories 500kcals per day to 1759kcal/day.
*********************
I think her protein requirements are wrong. I believe that much of your energy needs are provided by the 80% fat that I will be taking in and that excess protein is being broken down to ammonia and urea in my body. I also think that a lot of it is going to gluconeogenesis which is why I'm seeing the blood sugar spike, which means fat is being stored.
Here is what I know from Jan Krasniewski's Optimal Diet figures for minimum protein requirements:
"In order to work out the correct daily food intake using this proportion, one has to know how many grams of protein needs to be ingested in a day to satisfy body's requirements. This amount varies from person to person and depends on a "due body weight". Due body weight, in kilograms, is equal to person's height in centimetres less 100 (± 10%). Thus, for a person 160 cm tall, a due body weight is 60 kg ± 6 kg.
A correct amount of protein to be consumed in a day is approx. 1 g per 1 kilogram of a due body weight. Thus, a 60 kg person needs to consume 60 ± 6 g of protein to satisfy body's daily needs. Any excess of protein, above the daily requirement, is converted by the body to fat, provided energy requirements are met by other components. " So to calculate my due body weight:
65.5" x 2.54cm/in = 166.37cm
166.37cm - 100 = 66.37kg
Protein Requirement = 66.37kg x 1g/kg due body wt. = 66.37 +/- 10%
66.37 +/- 6.6g = 59.77g to 72.97g
But JK also recomments having 30-50g of carbs per day to keep a person out of ketosis. I am only having about 2-5 carbs per day. So to make up for that extra nutrition that would be on the low end about 28g of carbs = 28g x 4 = 79.57kcals which equates to 79.57/4g = 19.9g of extra protein x 1.58 = about 30g of extra protein. I will use the estimate that up to 58% of protein CAN be converted to glucose and will figure that if I allow an extra 30g of protein to my minimum requirements, that puts me in a range of:
89.77g protein/day - 102.97g protein/day
I could be way off on this though. So for the sake of the next two weeks I am going to shoot for about 90g of protein daily with the cals between 1800-1900kcal/day and see what happens.
Please come in and visit and keep me accountable. Give you thoughts and feedback. Discussion is highly welcome.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:38 am Post subject:
Pooti, please keep us posted on your regimen and your results. It will be very interesting to see. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: South Florida Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 529 Born: 3 March 1919 Gender: Female
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject:
i have clicked on that button down there that will watch this thread..
i'm anxious to see how you do, pooti! _________________ "Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."
So I have a change on yesterday's menu already. I did not end up eating the cheese or butter. I had put them on there in order to get my calories up since I'd skipped breakfast while I was preparing the info for this new plan and also I just wasn't hungry.
I'd read in Bear's epic thread over at ALF that he ate 3 times a day whether he was hungry or not. That he simply doesn't get hungry so he merely schedules his meals and eats a quantity of food. I feel like I need that structure in my life and also to keep the amounts on an even keel from one day to the next. I believe it will aid in my insulin level reducing over time.
5 oz Beef Shortribs, braised
1 c Beef Broth, homemade (I used the premade setting cuz it looks closest in nutrient values to how I really make mine).
.5 oz Meat Drippings
Current Weight : 285.4lbs
Notes:
I felt really good yesterday. I didn't have the driving hunger that seems to hit every other day. I did have a bit of anxiety last night, similar to my old adrenalin rushes. I used relaxation techniques and deep breathing to get past them. I also used it as a cue to hydrate. I'm thinking the buildup of ketones from dinner last night was causing a release of cortisol that resulted in the anxiousness. The best way to reduce ketone body load so I'm told is to hydrate. So I drank mas agua! Was better by bedtime, enough to be able to sleep.
Slept fitfully again however. Woke up with minimal pain. No poopy yet today but had one yesterday. _________________ 314/283/150
Location: South Florida Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 529 Born: 3 March 1919 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:50 am Post subject:
morning pooti,
i had gone away for the weekend, really just 24 hours and back and ate regional foods and imbibed in wine too...
had a candy bar on monday.
all the weight i dropped came back.
lost 10, gained it back.
i'm back to the beginning.
but i will say this, it's a little difficult to try to eat this way and go visiting...
i wanted to enjoy her outstanding low carb cooking and i gained weight.
new parameters must be built now...
you can't travel and eat this way. _________________ "Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."
Location: Northern California Joined: 11 Dec 2008 Posts: 137 Born: 27 January 1947 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:23 pm Post subject:
Lynne wrote:
all the weight i dropped came back.
lost 10, gained it back.
i'm back to the beginning.
but i will say this, it's a little difficult to try to eat this way and go visiting...
i wanted to enjoy her outstanding low carb cooking and i gained weight.
new parameters must be built now...
you can't travel and eat this way.
Isn't the 10 just water weight? How can you gain 10 lbs of fat on your body in one weekend? _________________ zero carb
Location: South Florida Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 529 Born: 3 March 1919 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:31 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Yes, I'm sure most of it is just water. It should drop pretty quickly.
5 lbs was peed out yesterday.
the chcolate and sugar made me so sick, i couldn't eat yesterday.
hopefully, the other 5lbs will disappear, today!
pooti, how you doing?
how's your weather?
you freezing like the rest of us? _________________ "Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject:
Pooti,
How's your experiment going?
Looks like my theory is panning out with my experiment.
Am curious if you are losing faster by cutting calories. I'm dropping my cals by a thousand this week to see what difference it makes. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Pacific Northwest Joined: 22 Jan 2009 Posts: 1460 Born: 2 December 2009 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:53 am Post subject:
Hello Pooti, I am new to the board but I read your thread here and the one leading up to it, and it caught my eye. I have been doing something very very similar.
I agree that the calculator you used gives a much too high protein recomendation. I am not sure that the author of it meant for it to be used with a zero carb diet, that may explain the high protein. I looked at that calculator at the beginning of my experiment and came to the same conclusions as you.
So I have been eating only meat, eggs(tho very few), poultry, spices and herbs, and 2 tbs of cream for 3 weeks(monday will be 3 weeks). I am not eating cheese or artificial sweeteners. I ate 1 cup of lettuce twice, and had one LC cheat day. And I am limiting my calories to 1500-1600. I average 73% fat, 25% protein, and 2% carbs. I am finishing out the month.
I do feel that maybe my protein is high, but I wan't to continue it as is for the sake of my "science experiment". I do get the amonia smell as well, so next month I may try an 80/20 ratio.
I will post my results at the end of the month.
I'm watching your experiment. Best of luck, y0u. _________________ Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat
Hey guys. Sorry to be missing in action. This weekend and the end of last week was such a confusing time for me and one where I felt really down about my weight and health. So I took the weekend off from worrying and obsessing about my eating (no I didn't cheat - exactly).
Meaning I did cheat if you apply it to zero carbing but didn't cheat if you apply it to 20g carbs/day.
I've had to quit zc and my experiment. I was unable to stick to the 80/20 and calorie restriction. I just couldn't do it. I was starving and didn't make it beyond 2 days. In addition to that last week I saw my blood sugars increasing, my adrenalin ruses and full head sweats with beet red face increasing and my heart pounding more and more often (even while laying still). My blood pressure also went back into the 140s/90s again after being in the 120s/80s (medicated).
I just felt crummy and got tired of feeling that way. So I added back some veggie carbs to bring me up to a lighter stage of ketosis. This is exactly what has happened to me in the past when trying to zero carb. I think that my body really started doing the ketoadaption thing with the 80/20 calorie restriction and it set off my cortisol levels which screwed with everything else.
Maybe it would have quit had I kept going but I was too afraid that it meant because my insulin levels were high, I would start storing all the fat I was eating in my arteries. So by eating around 20g of veggies carbs I'm slowly starting to feel better. My blood sugars have dropped again and so have my blood pressure and the crazy pounding of my heart.
I'm still having some adrenaline rushes but they are getting less and less and only lasting a couple of minutes now. I only had one yesterday.
I feel really weak like I am a loser or quitter. But the reality is that I wasn't losing on top of all the other crappy feelings.
So I don't know if you guys want me here anymore since I'm not zcing any more. Let me know what yall think, ok?
Thanks and sorry not to come post sooner. _________________ 314/283/150
I wish someone could shed light on what's happening in my body when I ZC. I loved not being tempted by carbs although I had a very prodigious appetite on zc. I never went through the not hungry phase.
I don't know if it would help to eat some meals zc and some not. I really think that my cortisol has been spiking from the deep ketosis, causing a spike in my insulin and also a rise in blood sugar but I don't know that for certain. I just know when I saw 133 on my glucometer the other night 4 hours after eating meat and fat only I had to say enough is enough. I just wish I knew more about metabolism...
I hope everyone else feels the same way and will say to stay.
Location: Pacific Northwest Joined: 22 Jan 2009 Posts: 1460 Born: 2 December 2009 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject:
Hi Pooti, I am a newbie and I cannot speak for anyone else but myself. I don't think your a loser or a quitter. You know your own body better than anyone else and you have to do what is right for yourself. From what I have seen on this board, everyone that is eating LC,VLC or ZC is welcome.
I wish you the best of luck on your journey. _________________ Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6030 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:42 am Post subject:
Pooti, you're very welcome to stay here. There are not many here that are strict ZC. At least not on a permanent basis. You definitely have some issues that need to be worked out. I'm sure everybody here is willing to offer what help they can. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: South Florida Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 529 Born: 3 March 1919 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:41 am Post subject:
POOTI, have you had your thyroid checked?
have you had any blood work done, lately?
i don't know what to tell you.
i have no answers because i don't know much about the body and the way it works..
now ask me about a camera and photo shop.....
and i'm all over it. ;)
i hope you get things worked out so you can jump back in the challenges!
we have one coming up in Feb..
i believe some of us agreed to it. _________________ "Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:54 am Post subject:
Pooti,
You certainly are welcome on the Bus!
I'm not sure how it got the reputation as a ZC board, but, the Bus is NOT a ZC board! It's a Carnivore board!
While we all recognize animal food as being essential to our health, we all must figure out what non-animal foods we can handle or may need. Check out the February Challenge. You will fit right in, as will all members of the Bus.
You are the best judge as to what is going on with you. You have to experiment with things. That's what the Bus is all about. It has a long legacy of experimenting with things, if you know what I mean.
Hey, it's all Bear's doing. He turned us on to all of the above! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Lynne - I need to go get my blood work done. I've been putting it off cuz of the expense and the economy and hoping I could tackle it myself with diet. I have taken my temp the past two days in my armpit and it looks normal to me: 97.6* and 97.8*...
Thanks Dean, I appreciate your board and the very cool people here (not to mention the koolaide)! _________________ 314/283/150
Location: Midwest USA Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 839 Born: 15 July 2010 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject:
Pooti- Stick around with us. I know that I take "liberties" with my eating plan that others here do not. No one has kicked me to the curb yet. You have to go with what works for you and your life. I wish you well with working out the glitches.
Location: South Florida Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 529 Born: 3 March 1919 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject:
Pooti wrote:
(not to mention the koolaide)!
just out of curiousity...
are they smoking this or drinking it???
::::wiggling eyebrows:::: _________________ "Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject:
Well, as far as I know, nobody has ever attempted to smoke the Kool-Aid. At least, I hope everyone is observing the no smoking sign at the back of the Bus. Of course, those Kool-Aid parties get pretty wild back there, so anything is possible, I suppose. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:02 am Post subject:
Some smoke it, some snort it, some shoot it, others just drink it right down. Either way, we all end up melting into a sea of beautiful radiance and delightful ecstasy ... and waking up in some of the strangest positions. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: South Florida Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 529 Born: 3 March 1919 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:02 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Some smoke it, some snort it, some shoot it, others just drink it right down. Either way, we all end up melting into a sea of beautiful radiance and delightful ecstasy ... and waking up in some of the strangest positions.
and beds..... _________________ "Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."
Ok, so I did a little experiment last night thanks to some advice and help from Dean, Jeff, Craig et al
What did I did and why did I did it? Well I "think" I see my blood sugar go up and stay up for hours when I eat big portions of protein and fat only (more protein than fat though). I am a big eater and recovering binge eater so volume is where it's at for me. I want that "FULL" feeling. Without that feeling - feelings of deprivation and diseuphoria set in. I feel funked out. So I don't last for long when eating only tiny portions.
The other part of the equation is that when I cut down protein and eat more fat respectively (somewhere in the 80% range)...I start feeling anxious and I have these adrenalin rushes where for no reason my heart starts beating fast, my head breaks out in drenching sweat and I get bright red in the face. I also feel tightness in my chest and breathless. If I pee on a stick at that point you would see my ketones in deep purple on the last rung.
The thing that's weird is that when I'm showing ketones to the first 3 levels I never have feelings like this. I think that is when my fats range from 65-75 percent continually. Meaning if I repeated eat at 75% fat and above, I will gradually start having that adrenalin thing again.
So between the need to eat to satiety with volume and the need to balance that with reducing my volume in order to reduce insulin but needing to be able to tolerate a higher fat load for satiety while keeping adrenalin rushes at bay...did you get all that? Confusing right?
I tried a little experiment last night with stellar results from a blood sugar standpoint!
I decided to try a little bit of a Jan Krasniewski style of eating. He is the guy who pioneered the Optimal Diet where you strive for ratios between individual ideal protein requirements, fat, and carbohydrate. He sets that ratio up as something that looks like this on a per gram basis: For every 1 gram of protein: you have 2.5-3.5g of fat: to .8g of carbs. But being T2, I know I can't handle that volume of carbs. So he recommends around 30g of carbs/day for T2s. I kinda arbitrarily set the carb ratio at .3g of carbs for every 1g of protein to 3.5g of fat.
So here's what dinner looked like last night. I was full but not stuffed and did not feel deprived:
Weight 283.8lbs (down from 286.6lbs yesterday but t be fair last night by the time I got home from taking Mom to radiation treatment and getting her settled my weight was down to 284.2lbs. So water weight was down already prior to eating dinner.)
The blood sugar numbers I saw last night are exactly what I strive for. They are statistically insignificant. An 8 point rise from pre-prandial to peak is what I would consider "tight control". The only thing that I don't like is that the elevation remains for soooo long. I hope that will improve with time. It would be almost a flat line.
I did however, have just the edge of adrenalin after eating. Slight breathlessness. Face flush. Slight tightness in the chest and anxiety. That tells me that although the blood sugar didn't rise, most likely my insulin did as did cortisol level. Which isn't so good.
I'm going to play with the numbers today and see how I feel. But maybe eating a JK style will help me reduce my protein intake, up my fat, keep carbs minimal while controlling the cortisol and insulin. Allowing me to not only regulate my blood sugar, but also feel better and lose weight to boot!?!
We'll see...
If you look at my blood sugar levels at 6 hours you see that I'm elevated at 105 still. Most people are eating their next meal at 4-6 hours after their previous meal and if I'm peaking at 4hours which is what I'm seeing with a protein/fat meal, then I'm compounding my insulin problem by adding more food, insulin and blood sugar into the mix before my numbers resume pre-prandial values. I think this is due to delayed stomach emptying or else, it's due to my liver continuing to make sugar via gluconeogenesis.
While that doesn't seem to be such a big deal when my blood sugar at 4 hours is 105, consider that with larger protein servings my blood sugar would be maybe in the 1teens or 120s at 4 hours. Then you add another spike to it and that's pushing into the danger zone where neuropathy begins. You also have to consider that this was only a 4oz portion of protein plus 8g of veggie carbs. Imagine how much bigger the spike is when I eat 12-14oz of meat or even a pound of meat. I can easily eat a pound of meat and am happiest when doing that - that is until the blood sugar spikes, and the adrenalin rushes begin. Then it sucks.
The question would be then, do I simply wait longer than 6 hours between meals? Sometimes that is easy, other times it isn't. _________________ 314/283/150
The principles of the Optimal Diet
The main principle of this dietary model is a marked increase in the consumption of fat, and the reduction in the consumption carbohydrate, as the energy source for the body. There are, however, strict rules on the proportion between the three main food components, protein, fat and carbohydrates, which need to be followed (with few exceptions) in order to achieve claimed benefits of the Optimal Diet.
The ideal proportion between the main food components of protein, fat and carbohydrates should be in the range of:
m m 1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.8
In order to work out the correct daily food intake using this proportion, one has to know how many grams of protein needs to be ingested in a day to satisfy body's requirements. This amount varies from person to person and depends on a "due body weight". Due body weight, in kilograms, is equal to person's height in centimetres less 100 (± 10%). Thus, for a person 160 cm tall, a due body weight is 60 kg ± 6 kg.
A correct amount of protein to be consumed in a day is approx. 1 g per 1 kilogram of a due body weight. Thus, a 60 kg person needs to consume 60 ± 6 g of protein to satisfy body's daily needs. Any excess of protein, above the daily requirement, is converted by the body to fat, provided energy requirements are met by other components.
Having worked out the amount of protein, one can then calculate the amount of other components in a daily menu. Thus, for our typical 60 kg person, the consumption of 60 g of protein has to be accompanied by between 150 to 210 g of fat, and 30 to 50 g of carbohydrate in order to follow the principles of the Optimal Diet. _________________ zero carb
Joined: 06 Jan 2009 Posts: 39 Born: 7 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject:
The rise is blood sugar with meat is no surprise. I think Dr. Bernstein says it's about 2 points per ounce of lean meat. That's basically what I see. I ate an 18 ounce strip yesterday, and my blood sugar went from 103 - 139 and stayed there for over 4 hours.
This is something that Charles would never accept: protein metabolizes into glucose. He's convinced that meat can't cause insulin spikes, but that's how protein is processed.
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6030 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject:
Keep in mind, though, that 36 point increase in BG translates to maybe 2g of glucose. An average size person with a BG reading of 100 will have only about 5g of glucose in their bloodstream.
Let me think out loud here for a minute. When we start cooking a meal and smell the food cooking, we have the phase one insulin response. This begins to clear the bloodstream of glucose, among other things. This would of course result in a lowered BG. Then, as we begin to eat, we have the phase two insulin response. Even eating only meat and fat will produce an insulin response.
Now, just suppose that the body realeases glycogen in order to maintain adequate BG levels. Maybe it even overcompensates a little. Bear says this is glycogen's function......to maintain BG levels.
So, that's my idea. Maybe the BG increase after eating protein is not from the protein being converted to glucose, but from glycogen being released to replenish the bloodstream.
Any thoughts? Am I crazy? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Craig, I see almost exactly the same thing more or less. I've never done and absolute correlation of 2pts/oz but know that Dr. B estimates this and it's certainly within the confines of my experience.
Jeff, I also think it's possible about the function of the liver and glycogen but in ketosis you are supposed to empty your glycogen stores, yes? So theoretically we aren't supposed to have these glycogen stores that's what enables gluconeogenesis, right?
My theory, especially with people having impaired glucose metabolism either from hyperinsulinimia or from t2 or from fatty liver is that the liver has an impaired ability to process glucose and fatty acids. That somehow gluconeogenesis gets "turned on" much more readily and with less control than usual. That causes blood sugar to rise.
What I've found is that my blood sugar usually rises when I fast and it also rises more the deeper into ketosis I get and also it rises the larger the portion of protein. I can also go outside and garden or push my mom in a wheelchair or drive a stick shift/manual car for two hours or do anything that causes me to use my muscles and my blood sugar rises pretty immediately afterward.
I also know, on the experiment, I am having trouble being satisfied with 4oz of protein/meal (something I've been trying) and I usually am eating now around 5-8oz per meal. That still leaves me hungry. But I'm afraid to eat more...
Personally, Craig, I believe Dr B more than I believe Charles. And Jeff, my diabetes educator told me phase 2 response doesn't usually begin until after 4-6 hours? I haven't done a search for this so don't know if it's true or not. _________________ 314/283/150
Joined: 06 Jan 2009 Posts: 39 Born: 7 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:53 am Post subject:
Pooti wrote:
What I've found is that my blood sugar usually rises when I fast and it also rises more the deeper into ketosis I get and also it rises the larger the portion of protein. I can also go outside and garden or push my mom in a wheelchair or drive a stick shift/manual car for two hours or do anything that causes me to use my muscles and my blood sugar rises pretty immediately afterward.
This used to be exactly the way it was with me. Things are changing for me now. My blood sugar is falling much more often now, into the 70s even, when I fast and exercise.
Dr. Mary Vernon recently commented that high fasting numbers are a response to insulin resistance. She thinks the body's cells are telling the liver to produce glucose because they can't get enough energy, and that this changes when insulin resistance falls. A few months ago, I heard her say that high fasting numbers were normal. Maybe she's changed her opinion.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:56 am Post subject:
Pooti wrote:
in ketosis you are supposed to empty your glycogen stores, yes? So theoretically we aren't supposed to have these glycogen stores that's what enables gluconeogenesis, right?
Pooti,
One never empties their glycogen stores. Gluconeogenesis is a way to make glucose to replenish these glycogen stores, which must be maintained. This is very critical, since that is how your blood glucose levels maintain that narrow range.
There are glycogen stores in every muscle in your body, and in your liver. The normal levels of glycogen that are in these stores, when you eat like a human was designed to eat (zero carb), will have enough glycogen to take care of the blood cells, which must have a very narrow range of glucose (or you are a goner, real quick). These stores are located all over your body, cuz, your blood flows all over your body, so, that is why they are there - to take up glucose when blood glucose levels get too high, and to release glucose when these levels get too low. For making ATP, your non-blood cells will prefer FFAs/ketones, and will use those substrates. The glucose is simply stored to maintain blood glucose levels within that very narrow range. Blood cells have to use glucose to produce ATP, since they lack mitochondria.
As far as being fat adapted, that has to do with your brain and the other parts of your CNS (central nervous system). Those guys can use glucose, but, will start using ketones instead, once they adapt. Gluconeogenesis is absolutely necessary, especially on a zero carb diet, and some say even on any diet. Your liver makes glucose for the blood, and the blood stream will deliver this glucose to the glycogen stores which are all over your body, so, your blood glucose levels will rise after you've eaten. Check Lex's thread here in the Ward to see how his blood glucose levels rose after he ate.
BTW, your cells do NOT need insulin to take up glucose.
INSULIN IS NOT NEEDED FOR GLUCOSE UPTAKE AND UTILIZATION IN HUMANS
Contrary to popular belief supported by the leading physiology and biochemistry textbooks, there is sufficient population of glucose transporters in all cell walls at all times to ensure enough glucose uptake to fuel the cell, even in the absence of insulin. The cells have the means to uptake glucose without the need of insulin. Insulin can and does increase the number of these transporters in some cells but glucose uptake is never truly insulin dependent. Even during extreme ketoacidosis there is no significant blockage to glucose getting into the cell the block occurs later, while the cell is using the glucose for fuel. The cell prefers to use ketones and fat for fuel, and therefore the glucose is not needed as much, and therefore not taken in as much by the cell. So, on a VLC diet, it is not the low insulin that keeps glucose out of the cell, but the fact the cell has less need for glucose, instead using ketone bodies and fat for fuel. This process of cellular uptake of fuel appears to be general for all fuel, as transporters are the mechanism by which they are transported across the cell walls. When insulin is administered to people with diabetes who are fasting, blood glucose concentrations fall. It is generally assumed that this is because insulin increases glucose uptake into cells. However, this is not the case and is just another metabolic legend arising from in vitro rat data. It has been shown that insulin at concentrations that are within the normal physiological range lowers blood glucose through inhibiting the production of glucose by the liver. So, insulin slows down the liver from making glucose, rather than shoving the blood glucose into cells. The cells can take up the glucose by themselves. Although insulin will increase the transporters the cell uses to take in glucose, thereby indirectly aiding the cell to take up more glucose, it is not required for the process to take place.
When you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, it makes more sense. Think about having NO dietary glucose in your body. Insulin's main function (along with glucagon) is to REGULATE gluconeogenesis. That is the MAIN function - to keep blood glucose levels at a certain rate, since all blood glucose should originate from the liver. The RATE of hepatic gluconeogenesis is controlled by insulin and glucagon. When us humans started dumping shit loads of glucose into our blood, this caused insulin to skyrocket, because it was desperately trying to stop out of control gluconeogenesis (or so it thought). The pancreas pumps out insulin to slow down the perceived production of glucose by the liver, even though the glucose is NOT coming from the liver. But, how the hell did the pancreas know that we would stop hunting and start making Twinkies?
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6030 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject:
Quote:
And Jeff, my diabetes educator told me phase 2 response doesn't usually begin until after 4-6 hours? I haven't done a search for this so don't know if it's true or not.
4-6 hours sure seems like an awfully long time. Although after doing a quick search, I really didn't find anything. So who knows? I do know one thing, though. After doing 6 years of reading and research about low carb and ZC, I have learned that most "experts" don't know what the heck they are talking about. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Joined: 06 Jan 2009 Posts: 39 Born: 7 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject:
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that a phase 2 insulin response starts shortly after eating, but is slow to work, which generally gives people a post-prandial peak at 2 hours. I've seen healthy people test normal after a post-prandial peak which occurs within an hour. That's the phase 1 response.
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6030 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject:
That sounds reasonable, but I base that opinion on almost nothing. LOL Just a "hunch" or "gut feeling". _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: South Florida Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 529 Born: 3 March 1919 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
So, that's my idea. Maybe the BG increase after eating protein is not from the protein being converted to glucose, but from glycogen being released to replenish the bloodstream.
this sounds so logical. _________________ "Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6030 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject:
Lynne wrote:
jeff wrote:
So, that's my idea. Maybe the BG increase after eating protein is not from the protein being converted to glucose, but from glycogen being released to replenish the bloodstream.
this sounds so logical.
Thanks Lynne. I thought so too. I was hoping for a little more discussion about this.
There are quite a few really smart people who believe that protein does not convert to glucose. It just seems to me that the body would use the glucose already present in the body (glycogen) before it would go through the trouble of converting protein into glucose. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject:
Um, I'm failing to see the "logic" here.
jeff wrote:
When we start cooking a meal and smell the food cooking, we have the phase one insulin response. This begins to clear the bloodstream of glucose, among other things. This would of course result in a lowered BG.
Insulin does not "clear the bloodstream of glucose". Rather, it is released by the pancreas to suppress hepatic glucose production. If you read my post above I go into great detail about that. Hepatic glycogen stores are going to give a constant supply of glucose to the blood stream. Gluconeogenesis makes sure of this. The fine tuning of the blood glucose range is handled by the muscle glycogen stores. This is the way it is supposed to work on a normal human diet of ZCarnivore eating.
jeff wrote:
Now, just suppose that the body realeases glycogen in order to maintain adequate BG levels. Maybe it even overcompensates a little. Bear says this is glycogen's function......to maintain BG levels.
Yah, Bear and everyone else. This is pretty common knowledge. Once again, it is to fine tune the blood glucose levels, to keep them within a tight range. It is NOT to supply blood glucose. That is the liver's job. It is to maintain a certain blood glucose range, by taking up and releasing blood glucose.
jeff wrote:
So, that's my idea. Maybe the BG increase after eating protein is not from the protein being converted to glucose, but from glycogen being released to replenish the bloodstream.
So, how is the muscle glycogen replenished? By hepatic gluconeogenesis. Glucose has to be released by the liver and travel through the blood stream to get to all the muscle glycogen stores.
jeff wrote:
There are quite a few really smart people who believe that protein does not convert to glucose. It just seems to me that the body would use the glucose already present in the body (glycogen) before it would go through the trouble of converting protein into glucose.
On a ZC diet, where will the glucose come from? It originates from the liver, and the liver is not "going through any trouble". That is a normal function of the liver. Hepatic gluconeogenesis is regulated by insulin and glucagon. Obviously if there is too much glucose in the blood, insulin will be released to control what would normally be the source of the glucose - hepatic gluconeogenesis! Again, read my post above. Think evolution, guys. Think about what would be the normal situation. What most people fail to take into account is the extreme abnormality of our present day eating that is giving us such totally abnormal physiological conditions! These conditions are then studies by scientists as if they are normal conditions, which they certainly are NOT!
jeff wrote:
I was hoping for a little more discussion about this.
Then read my post above! So was I!
Pooti, sorry for hijacking your Experiment. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6030 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject:
Dean, Bear says this about gluconeogenesis:
"Gluconeogenesis cannot and will not even take place so long as there is enough fat intake, period. 'Excess' dietary protein is broken down and discarded, never converted to glucose except in an emergency- such as under heavy and extensive fasting- and then only after all the stored glycogen in liver and muscle has been converted first."
You seem to disagree. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject:
Yes, I remember quoting this very stuff in the Cafe.
jeff wrote:
"Gluconeogenesis cannot and will not even take place so long as there is enough fat intake, period."
Yes, this may be true in a normal human. How many normal humans are even on the planet? Everyone is so fucked up that things are going totally haywire in our bodies. But, yah, if we ate 80% animal fat and 20% animal flesh from birth, perhaps the normal way of doing things would be that fat would be used for fuel by the majority of our cells, and for those poor little blood cells, fat would be converted over to glucose (via gluconeogenesis, BTW). There are lots of other substrates than aminos for GNG. Perhaps Bear was referring to protein being used for GNG. I dunno, but, one thing I do know is GNG must constantly take place to replenish glucose for those poor little blood cells that lack mitochondria.
jeff wrote:
"'Excess' dietary protein is broken down and discarded, never converted to glucose except in an emergency- such as under heavy and extensive fasting- and then only after all the stored glycogen in liver and muscle has been converted first."
That is the key isn't it? "After all the stored glycogen in liver and muscle has been converted (to glucose) first." At some point glucose is going to be needed and GNG will have to occur. In most people walking around in the modern world, who are anything from being fat/keto adapted, that is going to be pretty damn often. The more FFA/keto adapted one gets, then the less GNG will need to occur, but, even then, it will still need to occur on a regular basis, to constantly feed those trillions of poor little blood cells. So, while it may occur slower than for those who must power their CNS with glucose vs. ketones, and while it may use fat as the substrate to make glucose, GNG is going to happen, period, and insulin and glucagon are going to control the rate at which it happens.
GNG can use aminos, and so many people are on high carb/low fat diets, so, if it needs to use something, it will probably go after aminos, and conserve body fat. Again, our whole physiology is so fucked that it is hard to even do scientific studies on this stuff. But, no, I don't disagree with what Bear is saying. I'm just saying that this operates a bit differently in the modern human.
That's all I was trying to get across.
Does that make sense?
My main points were simply that no matter how fast it happens, and no matter what substrate is used, GNG must constantly occur for the blood cells. Bear was probably referring to protein being used for GNG more than anything. And, I agree, once fat/keto adapted, the rate of GNG will slow down. Once again, insulin will slow it down, and you do NOT need insulin to put glucose into cells. They have the membrane transport proteins on their walls to bring it on in. Muscle cells will take it in if necessary, just to burn the toxic shit up, but, insulin does not need to get (directly) involved with that. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6030 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:41 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Bear was probably referring to protein being used for GNG more than anything. And, I agree, once fat/keto adapted, the rate of GNG will slow down.
Perhaps that is what he meant, in which case it all makes perfect sense.
But didn't this whole discussion come about from talking about excess protein being converted to glucose? What do you think is going on with that? Like I said, alot of very smart peope, including Bear, believe this simply does not happen. So, what would cause a BG rise a short time after eating? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:39 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
what would cause a BG rise a short time after eating?
Pre-Diabetes? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Joined: 06 Jan 2009 Posts: 39 Born: 7 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:43 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Lynne wrote:
jeff wrote:
So, that's my idea. Maybe the BG increase after eating protein is not from the protein being converted to glucose, but from glycogen being released to replenish the bloodstream.
this sounds so logical.
Thanks Lynne. I thought so too. I was hoping for a little more discussion about this.
There are quite a few really smart people who believe that protein does not convert to glucose. It just seems to me that the body would use the glucose already present in the body (glycogen) before it would go through the trouble of converting protein into glucose.
I don't think anyone knows... What I've learned in the past few months is that everything we've been taught about diet and nutrition is just a guess -- NOT FACT. The things that we see in this diet counter everything we've been taught. Who would have suggested that fat does not store as fat; that calories do not matter; that you can eat 5000 calories of fat per day and still lose weight.
The health experts are lying to us in one respect: they are guessing and telling us it's fact. They have no clue how this stuff works. AND this lack of honesty is killing people. When the ADA recommends that diabetics try to maintain tight control of their blood sugars by keeping their average A1c numbers below 7, and their post-prandials below 180, and then wonder why their patients are dieing every day... the only thing that can be drawn from this is that they, in their arrogance and pomposity, simply accept these deaths using their best GUESS - but refuse to tell the patients everything they need to know to make their own decisions regarding the outcomes that effect their lives.
The diet and nutrition experts of our modern era simply don't know, and won't admit this simple lack of knowledge.
With regard to protein and gluconeogenisys, I can only offer this anecdotal evidence: whenever I eat meat, my blood sugar will rise 2 points for every ounce of meat I eat.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:04 am Post subject:
Very well put, Craig. ITA with everything you are saying.
Yah, the enormous sums of money that are raked in by Big Pharma, Big Medicine, Big Ag, and the Food Industry is what perpetuates all the misinformation. The bogus studies alone make them criminally duplicitous. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Dean no threadjacking at all! I'm hoping to shed some light on my experience so I for one hope yall will stick around in here and discuss this some more!
Dean, so why happens in a diabetic or pre-diabetic body upon eating too much protein? Like for instance, if I eat a lb of meat which I want to do at times, my blood sugar is gonna rise from the 100s or 1teens into the 120s and 130s (actually it will most likely be here in the 130s). It will stay elevated above 120 for at least 4-6 hours!
Obviously my body is not reacting like yours and Jeffs. At that level the insulin in my body is telling my body to store fat cuz of the high insulin. Why is it elevating that high?
And more importantly. If protein does not convert to glucose then why is my blood sugar rise post prandially with protein and fat only, dose dependent? i.e. why will I have different levels of severity based on the quantity I eat? If fat doesn't affect blood sugar and insulin response, then the protein has to be doing that. I know there is a small amount of glycogen available in the meat...but I don't think that is solely responsible for my bg rise. It seems like it's pretty on track with what Dr. B says about protein having a net effect on blood sugar of about 2pts/gm of protein consumed.
Also, why does having a little bit of glucose from veggie carbohydrate seem to help me keep my blood sugars down a little bit? When I added back carbs and since I'm keeping the carbs mostly in the 10s and teens for the day, my blood sugar has dropped a little back into the 100s and 1teens from where it had risen to the 120s and 130s etc.
I maintain that not everyone's body performs as Bear says it will or Charles for that matter. It depends on what level of broken we have. I think that is why there are so many people doing zc that are not having the results CW is expecting and why there is a lack of weight loss or even a gain for many...
I think a broken body responds much differently metabollically than a healthy or even semi-healthy person and I think it has to do with the extent of the liver and pancreatic impairment. It also has to do with whether or not the fat cells are insulin resistant, not just the degree of muscle cell insulin resistance.
Craig - the nonsense spouted by the ADA has to do with costs. If they treated everyone in order to "get their glucose out of the 180s", the cost would be stupendous they think. :( My diabetes educator tried to bargain with me not to go below a 30g/meal deck because she was sooooo worried about me having a hypoglycemic event! Ha!!! As you know diabetics can have what feels like hypo events at normal blood sugar levels when their bodies are used to having high sugars... The ADA is total nonsense of course... excellent post btw. _________________ 314/283/150
1 hour after eating she has a 6 point drop. This is the phase one insulin response, right? Ok, after another hour there is an 8 point rise. Many people seem to want to say that was caused by protein being converted to glucose. But who is to say that some, if not all, of that rise isn't from glycogen being released in order to bring her BG back up to normal?
_________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
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You have to go with what works for you and your life. I wish you well with working out the glitches.
