| Archive for The Magic Bus Trip Never get off the Bus! |
| Dean |
30 Day Metabolic Advantage Movement Experiment30 Day Metabolic Advantage Movement ExperimentI need some feedback on how to go about this. On January 4, 2008, I'm gonna start this, and I'm gonna stick to it for 30 days. That is after all the holidays, including my birthday. It will require me to give up coffee and wine, and spices and all of that for 30 days. But, I'm willing to do it. Somebody's got to. It's gonna be brutal, but it's all in the name of science, ya know. 
So, any ideas? And, anyone wanna join me? Come on jeff. You could use the detox. 
The idea will be to do only animal flesh and fat. Not even organs or eggs. Wanna get carbs as close to absolute zero as possible, and do a minimum of 5,000 calories a day, with fat being at least 80%. Daily stats, including food intake, calories, macro ratios, weight and body fat readings, will be posted. In April I did 15 days, and so I am sure this can be done for 30 days. |
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| Bobi |
OMG, Dean...you are getting drastic!!!
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| Billi-Jean |
 ...err, I volunteer to cheer with greatest enthusiasm from the sidelines! 
But seriously, Dean, if you can do this, it would be the ultimate challenge, and an absolute source of continual inspiration and hope to every one of us!! But, I will say again...
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| Dean |
Billi-Jean! I thought for sure you'd join me in this!
I may make it a stipulation that at least four others have to join me. Otherwise, Colpo will denounce this experiment for not having a big enough sample size!
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| Billi-Jean |
..err yes, Dean, but did I forget to mention  ??
...I'm sure he'd denounce it anyway, just coz you didn't get his approval first! Then again, maybe if we all promise to buy his book ... 
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| Dean |
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| jeff |
And, it's not being done in a metabolic ward.
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| Dean |
So, no takers, huh?
I think we can all put to rest the calorie question. Calories do count. Totally. Even when doing absolute zero carb. I'm glad that is settled. I was really not looking forward to putting on more body fat. So, what other experiments should we try? |
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| jeff |
I did the 7 day version. You can do the 30 day one and let us know how it turns out.
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| Dean |
I already know how it would turn out. I'd just gain a bunch of unnecessary body fat. No thanks. And, I'm sure that is the reason you are afraid to do this with me. You know you'd gain too, and you don't want to sabotage your efforts.
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| jeff |
Nope. |
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| Dean |
Neither do I.
So, I guess we'll have to come up with more interesting experiments. 
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| jeff |
No, I meant that wasn't the reason. However, I'm all in favor of any experiments that involve this guy!
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| Dean |
Well then, pray tell, what is? 
Remember, I already did this for 15 straight days, and there were so many that started out with me, but bailed after like one day. It was lonely doin' it all alone. So, if I gotta do this for 30 days, I want some company, dammit!
Anyway, it's the only way we can put this shit to rest. If two (or more?) of us do a 30 day zero carb deal, and we overeat calories, but we lose weight, wouldn't that be somethin'? Shit, Stefansson did it for a fricken year! What's one month? What if we included eggs, butter, or what have you. I'm open to suggestions. I was just making an initial suggestion, to open it up for discussion. We can find some common ground to do this. Main point is, we have to keep it at extremely close to zero carb. I think eggs would be fine and unsalted butter, but not cheese. We have to keep salt and carbs out of the equation. Just see if when people remove all carbs and salt, then the calorie theory falls on it's ass, and the "futile cycle" theory or whatever takes over. You'd be a good subject, and by then, I would be pretty keto adapted as well, so we would have a good base to start with. We can keep calories like at 4,000 or something like that... or even 3,000 with NO exercise. That would still prove things one way or the other. Come on, jeff. You can do 30 days if I can.  I'm a fricken sugar addict, and I'm willing to do it. I think we could probably convince Rich, Jake, Red, BJ, Dave, Heather, and others to jump in with us. 
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| jeff |
Ok, let me think about it. Maybe we can work out a deal.
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| Dean |
OK. Great!
Come on, all you adventurous Bus members. Let us know if you are in on this historical experiment. It is not really that bad, once you get your mind around it. You should work up to it at first, to get more keto adapted before starting, and to get rid of glycogen stores (water weight). Then, there won't be anyone saying "well, they just lost a bunch of water weight", or if we gain weight, don't want people to say, well it's cuz of the minor carbs in this or that. For this to really work, we gotta remove all the potential problems that people will most certainly point to... especially people like our dear friend AC.
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| Red |
I've already done it for a week, so I have a head start on you Dean. I've had an average of 2600 calories, 80% fat for the last week (and remember, I'm much smaller than you guys) and I haven't gained an ounce yet. And that's an average. It hasn't been less than 2400, but some days has been almost 3000. No exercise.
Oh, and it hasn't been lonely. |
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| Dean |
Red
So, since it may be kinda hard to coordinate a group experiment, and seeing how we don't really wanna park this Bus at some metabolic ward , perhaps we can just use this thread as an ongoing experiment.
I'm not ready yet, but I will be fairly soon.
So, what exactly are you eating? Any trace carbs, spices, chemicals or such? Maybe once someone changes their metabolic and hormonal environment, then they can have more calories in, cuz the calories out are gonna be more. In other words, if one eats like our ancestors, then their body will simply adjust their metabolism to burn up all the calories they put in... so, in = out. In and out of the blackbox. 
Things that make one go  ... and AC go ballistic!
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| Red |
I was eating meat for the first 2 days, but for the last 5 it's been eggs and copious amounts of butter, only. Like 3 scrambled eggs with 3 T. softened butter stirred in, in a go. One day I had some full-fat goat yogurt which was a bit carby (no ill effect, other than some bloating and gas  ). And yesterday I had a business lunch, so on top of the omelette I ate (gruyere cheese and asparagus), there was a small mixed green salad and some chicken liver pate to start. The pate had a small celery root salad with it, too. Actually, I ate more veg yesterday in that lunch than I have in the past 6 months, probably. OMG the gas. I won't even go there. I'm only now recovering. But still no weight gain. Normally the 20 -30 or so carbs that I ate yesterday would cause a somewhat significant gain, but with the extra fat I've been eating, my metabolism is such right now that it totally compensated for them.
I have abandoned IF for this experiment, as I can't possibly eat 2600 calories of mostly fat in one meal. Again, no weight gain, even with the extra meals and the extra calories. Typically, I'd eat about 1400 calories in a day and maintain at that, so I'm eating almost double what I normally would. Note that I haven't increased protein. Just the fat. My protein intake is actually a bit lower than normal, at roughly 70 g/day. The reason I'm doing this was to get my metabolism really fired up so that I can attempt to drop a bit of weight by resuming my regular diet. I only have about 10 lbs that I'd like to lose and it's not urgent. I've been static at my current weight (145 lbs) for a year and can only seem to lose if I reduce my calories to uncomfortably low levels. We'll see! I have no idea if it will work. Oh and I'm also doing this because it's fun to really gorge on fat occasionally. I love to eat straight butter, so it's been a nice treat for me. I never limited fat before, per se, but I ate more protein and limited calories, somewhat. So therefore, my fat was never usually more than 100 g day, if that. |
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| Alex |
Copied from this blog: Both MD and I have had patients who complained to us that they were following our program to the letter and weren’t losing any weight. When we asked them for their diet diaries we found that they were consuming huge amounts of food but were rigorously keeping their carbs below 30 grams per day. Sometimes we calculated that these patients were eating 4000+ kcal per day, which could have even been higher given that patients tend to under report what they eat instead of over reporting. What was amazing to us was that they weren’t gaining. They were pretty much maintaining their weight on an enormous number of low-carb calories. Looks like this challenge might stand a chance anyway
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| jeff |
There is no doubt in my mind that if a person keeps carbs to a bare minimum, no fat will be stored, even with an extra 1000-2000 calories per day. |
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| Red |
I lost a pound overnight.
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| Red |
It looks like the type of dietary fat might determine how easily it's stored, as well. Check out this study. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/26/2/197.pdf The people-losing-weight-on-a-low-carb-high-fat-diet part is old-hat. But the average-carb-diet-and-tons-and-tons-of-fat experiment is very interesting. It's looking like olive oil = not so great. Makes sense, considering how high in insulin-raising phenolic compounds it is. But the linoleic acid link is new, to me. |
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| jeff |
Interesting Red. Thanks. I only skimmed it. Maybe I'll give it a more thorough reading later. One thing that caught my eye though, was that people only gained a small amount of weight eating I believe about 6000 calories per day and consuming 50-60g of carbs. A much smaller gain than what would have been expected. I suspect that if those carbs were lowered to say 5-10g per day, there likely would have been no gain.
Seems to me that the higher the calories, the lower the carbs need to be to not gain fat. |
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| jeff |
Damn, I'm such a sucker for these experiments. I'll probably do it.  I'll tentatively look at Dec. 1 as my start date.
So Dean, do you think 4000 cal. on exercise days, and 3000 on no exercise days sounds ok? My average daily requirement would seem to be around 2500 calories. So if we average about an extra 1000 calories per day, that would be an extra 30,000 calories in a month, which should result in about an 8.5 pound fat gain. If not, then I would definitely call that a metabolic advantage!
On the other hand, no cheese or wine for a month?
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| jeff |
I'm not surprised. I've done this experiment for 7 days twice. Once with lowish protein, and once with high protein. On low protein I lost 1 pound. On high protein I lost 2 pounds. Both times consuming over 4000 calories per day. Dean, would that count as a 14 day experiment?
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| Dean |
jeff, if I were you I would welcome the chance to get off booze for one month. Seriously, alcoholism can creep up on anyone. You don't wanna develop a habit like that, trust me. So, jumpin' off the stuff for one month would be a really good idea. I did 15 days with just clean cuts of beef, pork and water. It was hard, but doable. I would love it if there were several of us that did 30 days and we could see what the results were. I think gettin' the glycogen stores out first is necessary before starting the 30 days. That's what I'm workin' on now. I don't want to skew the results from water weight loss. Anyway, I'm open to more suggestions on this whole thing. One of the most interesting things that happened to me on that 15 day experiment was the no elimination thing. That was downright weird. But, it made sense in a way, cuz my intestines were absorbing all the nutrients from the animal flesh and fat. Would be interesting to see if this happens to others. If you wanna really test your will, and totally detox your system, this is the thing to do. Treat your body and mind at the same time. And, lend more credence to the Metabolic Advantage Movement. Hey, it'll drive AC completely over the edge!
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| Jake |
Fat is stored as a triglyceride in the human body and contains more monounsaturated fat than anything else. Olive oil is an ideal choice for weight gain. Polyunsaturates do not make up much of our fat tissue (though they will make up more if we consume more of them, the fats you eat can somewhat alter the fats you store). While our body is capable of desaturating fatty acids, it cannot make them more saturated, hence polyunsats will not be stored to a great extent, no matter what. About fat tissues though, its worth considering that most supermarket animal meat is high in veggie fats, because of what they are fed at factories. Pork fat can be 30% polyunsaturated, compared with 6-8% normally. |
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| Dean |
Wow. Now we're gonna have to make that grass fed organic beef and pork? This challenge is gettin' harder all the time!
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| Dean |
To do my part in helping to drive AC into a tightly-controlled locked-down mental-bollix ward ...
I've renamed this thread 30 Day Metabolic Advantage Movement Experiment
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| Dan |
Jeff, unless you're a mutant, you'll gain weight doing that for a month. And if you are such a mutant, I'm envious as hell. |
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| Dean |
Doesn't Eades say if you don't create a caloric deficit, you won't lose weight? You won't gain it, but you won't lose it, either.
So, if that's true, then won't we all just keep our weight the same if we eat extra calories during a month of zero carb?
Problem is... I wanna lose some body fat, dammit! 
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| Billi-Jean |
Can't help wondering, though, if the chronic imbalance of O6:O3 is as inflammatory as we often hear (as well as the multitude of other ill-effects it purportedly can cause), what might the longer term effect be...? About 98% of the total polyunsaturates in corn oil are Omega 6, with 2% or so being Omega 3's!! ...that's not quite the 2:1 ratio we so often hear we should aim for
Damn, all these pesky details!!
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| Dean |
Well, you know what I always say... animal fat is where it's at!
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| Billi-Jean |
Well yes siree, that does simplify things...phew!
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| Red |
I know. I definitely wouldn't take up eating tons of PUFAs because of that study, just to lose weight. It does scare me. Although I think about the idea of eating tons of lard, for example (which is also very high in MUFAs) and think that maybe it's a bit easier to store, too, since it's so similar to human fat. 
Butter has been my main fat source since starting my little experiment. Again:
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| Billi-Jean |
mmmm....butter!! Let's just forget the damn scientass' contradictory details (who needs the added stress-induced cortisol surges from trying to keep up with their ever-changing "conclusions" anyway! )
As I'm sure you'd agree, all I know is when I lightly fry up some eggs, just til the whites set and then pour lashings of melted butter over them, then squish the oozy liquid yolks and mash the whites in with all that butter and gobble it all up...oh boy, it's like a symphony goes off in my head!! I've never met a vegie oil that made the little grey cells sing like that!!
The health-benefits of that alone must count for something... hey, there's a thought -how about we publish our own Magic Bus groundbreaking research paper, titled: "Beneficial Neuro-Endocrine Cascade Responses to Consumption of Butter Linked to Increased Health and Longevity" -by Dr. Beaubutter, Dr. DaMeat and Dr. Good-Eggedness
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| Dean |
In the final analysis, everyone of us has no choice but to just go with whatever we think is correct, which is based on our own empirical experiences, and our own beliefs about reality, like evolution, and other logical assumptions. For me, it really is that simple. Some things just make more sense to me than others. So, in the vast scheme of things, I will believe Sally Fallon and the WAPF, Bear, Atkins, Eades, and the list goes on... MAINLY cuz their stuff jives with what I believe about evolution. I probably base about 99% of what I accept about proper nutrition on what I think our genes were created (through evolution) to deal with. So, I think about the environment those genes must have evolved in.
Is it possible to go outside those parameters? Of course. Just how far is up to one's personal experimentations. All the scientific studies in the world are not going to change one's own experience with how they react to a certain substance. If eating certain things gives one major problems, they will probably avoid it. Other than that, I think one should just trust in the process, and experiment with it to see where it leads. For me, that is carnivorous eating. I truly believe in it, and am willing to keep going in this direction to find out how I do long term. I find it very hard to believe that animal fat is going to hurt me, since I strongly believe that my genes are diggin' it, and saying "it's about time".
That is why I wanna take the simple route to nutrition... So, I will say once again... animal fat is where it's at!
So much research is based on $$$$$$$$$. Not all that scientific, if you ask me. I agree with Billi-Jean, we need to do our own Magic Bus groundbreaking research papers... we can base it on the knowledge we get from drinking Kool-Aid.
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| Red |
Well whatever it is that I'm doing must be working because I'm down another half pound today and that's after having 2700 calories yesterday. I thought this method would be useful to rev up my metabolism so that when I returned to my usual way of eating, I'd lose some weight - but little did I know, I'd lose weight while actually overeating. My tummy is flat, too, so I'm not at all bloated or not digesting the fat. Everything is functioning perfectly. | ||||||||||
| Jake |
What have you been eating? Macronutrients? |
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| Red |
Average calories have been 2400 for the last 10 days (I had one day with not very much appetite, so I could only eat about 1400), but the other days have been closer to 2700. Average macros are: Fat = 235 g Protein = 60 g Carb = 10 g. My typical day before that was 1200 - 1400 calories, with 100 g protein, 5 - 10 g carb and much much less fat.
Most of what I've been eating is eggs and butter. The carbs are mostly from eggs. I had one day that I mentioned above where I had some vegetables and liver, but aside from that, no significant carb source other than eggs. Eggs just really absorb fat really well and I tolerate them very well, so they're a great food for me for this experiment. |
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| Dean |
So is Eades wrong? Can a person actually lose body fat while eating excess calories? I understand that they won't gain anything, but I thought it was not possible to lose unless one created a caloric deficit.
I will have to get FitDay setup and get ready to go on my part of this experiment. So, jeff, are ya gettin' ready to plunge in with me?
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| Dean |
Yesterday I ate only in the evening, and only once. I had about 10-12oz of pork belly. I could have easily eaten much more.
20oz of pork belly is nearly 3,000 calories!
92% fat - 8% protein - absolute zero carb 34% sat fat - 10% poly fat - 43% mono fat (for what it's worth) jeff, go get some pork belly. It's extremely easy to roast. And, it will be so easy to get extra calories from. And, of course, it's oh so wonderfully good!
Red, how many carbs are in the seasonings and in those dips? Any? |
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| Red |
They do add up. I haven't actually programmed in any specific recipes into fitday - I just estimate the amount of spice and add in the amount of vinegar and/or green onion in each meal, depending on what I've used each time. I don't often use the seasonings, though. I usually have it plain with just salt. That's why I don't bother programming anything in. | ||||||||||
| Red |
I have no idea. All I know is what's going on for me, right now. Maybe it's just that the metabolic advantage is much greater than he believes. I'm definitely eating more than 300 calories above what my body needs to maintain, considering I was not losing weight and maintaining just fine eating 1300 calories a day. I have no idea if those pounds I'm losing are fat, or what. All I know is that I'm not gaining, that's for sure.
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| Dean |
I'm willing to experiment with eating at least 1,200 extra calories every day, which would add up to at least a 10 lb gain over the 30 days. If I actually lose some pounds during these 30 days, then there is certainly a metabolic advantage that is greater than anyone believes. I may have to eat eggs and butter as well as pork fat to get that many calories in. I plan to be as sedentary as possible during those days. Just trying to eliminate all the factors one can point to and say "it's cuz of this or that reason you were able to do that". | ||||||||||
| Red |
Well, I can't promise to be as ridiculously high in calories as I have been every single day for a whole month. Like I said, I had a day where I just couldn't stomach it and only got in 1400 calories and even that was a stretch. There will be other days like that, I'm sure. But I'm going to keep this up until it's evident to me that I should stop. It's nice not having to go hungry or worry about calories, for once. I'm really wanting to re-train my metabolism to function properly, which it hasn't been. It's also been really nice not being really cold all the time anymore. I'll note again that I haven't gone nuts with protein - the added calories are from fat alone. In fact, my protein has been lower than usual - I've only been consuming 60 g/day, which is only my RDA. Once my metabolism is back in fighting shape, I'll probably cycle calories to lose any remaining weight I have to lose (about 8 lbs to go) and go back to IF, as I really enjoy it.
I'll keep reporting here while I'm doing this, though, so you can all see my progression.
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| Kim |
I would volunteer but I don't think I could even come close to eating that many calories. Kim |
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| Kim |
Maybe Eades is right and wrong. Maybe those people weren't gaining any weight but maybe if they had dropped their carbs even lower close to 0 they would have lost. Kim |
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| Dean |
Kim, I hear ya. I have been finding it really hard myself. I am not sure how to even go about it. But, I do know one person who could probably give us some tips.
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| Dean |
That's a good hypothesis. And one we can certainly test out, since I still have this bicycle tire that I wanna get rid of!
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| jeff |
It is difficult to overeat by 1000 cals per day, when you are eating only fat and protein. When I did this before I was having to eat butter, cream cheese, and coconut oil by the spoonfuls to get enough calories in. I could not handle eating more meat and fat. I had to go to pure fat because there was not enough room in my stomach for more meat. I was also having to do this when not even the sliightest bit hungry. Overeating in this way is alot harder than it looks! | ||||||||||
| jeff |
Ok, Dean. I'll give it a go. |
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| Dean |
So, how should we do this? I have been messing around with FitDay to see what foods have a lot of calories. Pork belly has a ton, with over 90% from fat. We could eat raw steaks (barely seared) and top them with tons of butter. Have them swimming in it. And make the fattiest beef burgers, and pour all the fat over them after cooking in a skillet. So, what types of food should we include? Any animal muscle/fat and eggs for sure. But what else? Should we restrict dairy to just butter and heavy cream? And, what about seasonings? It might be easier with than without. BTDT.
And, what about exercise? I personally think we should not do any, since it might complicate the calculations, although FitDay does have a way to plug that stuff in. Maybe we could just post all our food (and activities?) and let someone else enter all this stuff into FitDay. Anybody wanna volunteer for that? God, how I hate FitDay.
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| jeff |
I'd really hate to give up exercise completely. I've worked really hard to be in the shape I'm in. I'd be willing to keep it to a minimum......say no more than 20-30 minutes, 2-3 times per week. I could also eat a few hundred extra calories on those days. No dairy with the exception of heavy cream and butter sounds ok. I'll try to do without cheese. (Just don't tell the Governor. ) I think seasonings are fine. Things like garlic, herbs and spices.
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| Dean |
Yah, well seeing how your only 31 miles from Suzanne's toybox, I completely understand!
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| jeff |
It could be a trick for you to get me to slow down so you can catch up and beat me to that toybox. If my memory serves me, there's plenty in Suzanne's toybox for both of us.
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| Billi-Jean |
Hey guys, this is COOL!!
It's going to be a fantastic challenge -I'm already looking forward to it!! (er, from the comfort of the cheerleaders' corner, of course )
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| jeff |
Did I forget to mention that I have a "thing" for cheerleaders?
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| Billi-Jean |
...you're getting too darn close to Suzanne's toybox -it's making you distracted!!
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| jeff |
You've got that right!!! Just the thought of a cheerleader and Suzanne's toybox.....well, it's almost too much.
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| Billi-Jean |
...and, to top off the , when Heather strolls by with her whip, oh boy are you in trouble!!
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| Dean |
BJ, this isn't a Challenge... it's an Experiment. So, you need to don your lab coat and get out those instruments... and... uh... what were you saying about Heather's whip?
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| Billi-Jean |
oh dear, now Dean's getting distracted
Experiment huh? Um, I think my lab coat's gonna be at the cleaners that month -and anyway, I think I'd look better with the pompoms!
The very thought of trying to down 4000 odd calories... -this little lab rat ain't that brave yet!!
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| Alex |
Sorry guys, BJ and I definately prefer the cheering on the sidelines to wearing labcoats , so it's either take it or leave it
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| Dean |
Dan... that is frustrating! But, for me, right now, it is easy to tell that I have body fat, since my abs are not flat. I hate that stuff. I want it to be gone! poof!
jeff, I really wish that were true, but even then, this "excess roll" is not good. I have lost it before, eating paleo, which at that time was pretty lean game meat and VLC veggies, and probably low calories with lots of exercise. It's fat alright, and I don't like it. 
It's just that I have always wanted to get good abs, but always strayed into the sugar before I could get there. I'm just not satisfied, I guess. I'm curious if this excess fat is gonna just keep adding fat to me. I have not been zero carb, like Heather, so that may be the problem. But, damn, how low does one need to go?
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| Dean |
So, you do think we are gonna gain body fat!
You are worried about getting out of shape. I am worried about not getting into shape. I have this damn tire to lose.
Well, if we do exercise, won't we be messing with that hormonal environment? That's my only concern. It will appear that the exercise is what is doing the trick, not the low to zero carb. Then AC is gonna say... "ah, ha! See, I told you so". Anything but to hear AC say that!
Seriously, it seems that your exercising is the thing that has given you the body you want, and not the low carbing. So, once again, how are we gonna prove it is the diet? By removing all the variables, except the diet. jeff, it's only 30 days, and we will be able to take off the weight we put on, no problem.
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| Alex |
"...We're the team from the Mighty Bus
Sugar SUX, Sugar SUX! You will win if you stick with us Sugar SUX, Sugar SUX...!!!" Waving pompoms and all , you can do this, guys!! 
I'm going to stick with the caloric deficiency theory for now, but I'm sure gonna miss the porkbelly , but I might be able to sneak it in every now and then .
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| jeff |
No, it's not that I worry about gaining weight if I don't exercise. I just don't want to lose the level of physical conditioning that I have acheived.
But I've been exercising all along, so the hormonal environmet will be the same. I do plan on exercising, but less than normal. I don't see it as a problem for the experiment. |
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| Dean |
jeff, trust me, you are not going to lose any "level of physical conditioning" in 30 days.
I think it is the problem. Cuz, I think there are many who point to all your exercising as the reason you are able to keep excess weight off. And, if you keep exercising then you will need to eat more, which means it will be that much harder to get in all those extra calories. There are just so many factors to weight and body fat gains and losses. I just know that is like the number one thing that modern health points to. They say people are too sedentary, and that is why they are overweight/fat.
I have to agree with Dan. I think we are going to gain weight/body fat. 2000 extra calories a day for 30 straight days is going to add body fat to anyone's body. I think you should prove us all wrong. I think you should take one little month off your normal routine and eat tons of animal fat every day, keeping carbs to a bare minimum as you say. I would bet anything you are gonna gain weight. And, I am willing to do it with you, even though I would really like to start exercising and cutting calories, which I know I need to do to lose this excess body fat in my mid section, which is a really bad place to have it. So, I appeal to you. Let's really do this thing in the most controlled manner we can, so we can really see what is going on. Let's remove as many obstacles (variables) as we can. There are so many factors to weight/body fat gains and losses. It is a very individual thing, and is dependent on so many hormonal reactions, etc. But, as Dan has said...
I'm sorry, but I totally agree with him. There might be a slight MA, but in the grand scheme of things it's not even worth paying attention to. One has to be mindful of calories, especially if they want to lose body fat. 2000 X 30 = 60,000 / 3500 = 17 pounds. That would prove it one way or the other. In order to eat that many calories, you cannot exercise, cuz, believe me, it's gonna be hard enough to get in all those extra calories as it is.
jeff, just hurry up and get to Suzanne's toybox. After that you won't wanna run off for awhile.
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| Red |
According to my stats, I've consumed 13650 excess calories in the last 13 days, and so I should have gained 3.9 lbs of fat and I haven't gained anything on the scale and my body doesn't feel any fatter, whatsoever. | ||||||||||
| Dean |
Great, Red!
Thanks for keeping us posted. Keep up the good work.
Will be interesting to see what happens once you've done 30 days. Any chance of getting those calories higher? BTW, are you off the dairy (except butter)? |
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| Billi-Jean |
Wow! Oh boy the gauntlet's down now!!
Red, that's amazing...so you're on about 2400 cals per day with protein kept to around 60g still, is that right? If so then you'd be getting around 1000 cals per day more than what you usually maintain at...quite a lot of extra cals for a female... |
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| Red |
I'm not sure I could eat any more than I have been. I did have two days where I had zero appetite and couldn't manage quite as much, so that brought my average down a bit. I'll try to keep stuffing it in. Yes, I'm still off dairy. The very first day I had goat yogurt, but it bothered my stomach, so I haven't had any dairy, aside from butter, since then. Oh, and I have been having one or two drinks here and there. Usually scotch and not more than 2 oz. I'm not trying to lose weight on this experiment, so I didn't think too much of having the alcohol. It's nice to know that even with all those excess calories, I can still have a drink or two and not gain as long as carbs are under 10 g.
My average calories before starting were 1348. Other averages were Fat: 95 g Carb:7 g Protein: 100g Alcohol: 9.6 g I was maintaining at those amounts. I didn't always drink, but I sometimes did and so there you have the 9.6 g. My averages now are: Calories: 2390 Fat: 209.5g Carb: 12 g (from eggs and black coffee, mainly, plus that one day of veggies) Protein: 80g Alcohol: 19 g |
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| jeff |
Have you read Taubes' new book?
But, does anybody really think that maybe 20 minutes of exercise 2 times per week is going to keep me from gaining weight if I am taking in 1000-2000 extra calories per day? |
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| jeff |
ok, let's think about this ahead of time. Suppose we eat enough calories so the we "should" gain, say 17 pounds. What would we say about the results if we gain, say, 2 pounds. Or 5 pounds. Or 10 pounds. "Minor" fluctuations can happen because of no apparent reason. Perhaps a very small gain(or loss) should be viewed as now change? |
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| jeff |
Dean and Dan: Do you think that something will happen with Red to make her start storing fat in the second 2 weeks that wasn't happening in the first 13 days? Twice I overate enough to gain more than 2 pounds in a week. I did not gain. Red has overeaten enough if 13 days where she should have gained almost 4 pounds. She has not. |
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| jeff |
How about some input from the cheerleaders? If they can come up with a unanimous decision, I will abide by whatever they say. |
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| jeff |
Of course, that should read "no change", not "now change".
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| Billi-Jean |
glad you appreciate our input and not just our pompoms!!
Well, I guess I do find it hard to believe that 20 mins exercise a couple of times a week is going to make any difference at all...except maybe to maintain a bit of muscle mass -so if anything wouldn't that just ensure that the results actually show a more accurate picture of whether any actual fat is gained? |
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| Dean |
No change or now change or pocket change, 3.9 lbs is, as you yourself said, not significant enough one way or the other, just as your 2 lbs that ONE week could not be viewed as significant.
As you yourself call them "minor fluctuations". And, I totally agree. And, that is the reason I have wanted to do something more profound, like 5,000 calories per day. That would probably be about 20 pounds in a month. So, if that's how much one gained, then that would pretty much wrap it up for the Metabolic Advantage Movement, and it's sinister leader, Dr. Eades.
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| Dean |
Trust me. Someone, somewhere is gonna write a book about it! It'll be the latest fad!
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| Red |
Well, I'm going to carry this out for the full 30 days, but I'd say 13 days is a significant start, for absolutely no weight gain and no gain in my measurements for 1000 extra calories a day. You can't have it both ways, Dean. You can't say 'calories count - oh, but only if it's at least 2000 in excess.' If calories count, then my 13,000 excess calories should be just as meaningful as 26,000 excess calories - they should just show a lesser gain. Even with a 300 calorie/day metabolic advantage, 1000 calories should still produce a gain. They're still in excess and should have shown some sort of increase in my bf. We'll see. I'm staying impartial right now and really just doing this out of curiosity and to rev up my metabolism. I started it before I even read about you suggesting this challenge, actually. I think it's not a good idea to restrict calories and diet consistently for too long as it can slow you down and is hard on your body. It's good to eat plentifully once in a while in random bursts. That's why I'm doing this. So far, my results are leading me to believe that my metabolism can handle a significant number of excess calories as long as carbs are consistently low. Hell, I've had some days that were close to 3500 calories and still didn't gain the next day. Losing bodyfat with this level of calories? I doubt it. But maintaining? But maybe I'll magically put on 8.6 lbs in the second two weeks. Actually, it would have to be 10.1 lbs., considering my starting weight.
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| Dean |
But, is it possible that you lost some water weight? Or muscle? And, therefore you gained some fat? Or maybe you gained muscle and lost fat? I don't know. I'm just thinking there has to be some pathway to store fat (or muscle or something) when one eats more. But, as I said earlier in this thread, perhaps everything gets used up when eating like our ancestors. I really have no idea, just throwin' out conventional theories. I'm wanting to try this myself. Just sorta scared to do it. But, I'll give it a go to see what happens. Perhaps this will only work for some people, and only for certain times or conditions. Who knows? I really have no idea what goes on inside the black box. And, I sorta doubt if anyone really does. | ||||||||||
| Dean |
It was jeff who suggested these amounts could be seen as "minor fluctuations". I agreed, saying more profound results (like 20 lb gains or losses) would make things more certain.
I have no idea one way or the other. I throw out conventional theories just to play devils advocate, I suppose. In the end, my philosophy is all of it is theory, and all of it is subject to change. The only real truth is our own empirical experiences, which can be explained in multiple ways, yet are much more real existentially than any theory. Sorry if I came across as certain about this one way or the other. I'm really not.
I guess what I should have said is I hypothesize we are going to gain. Truth is, I have no idea. How could I? |
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| Dean |
That's great, Red! I'm happy for ya. I've seen where ZCing and IFing have improved my metabolism significantly. I've also seen where eating garbage for an extended period of time plays havoc on it.
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| jeff |
Playing around with Fitday, here's what a typical day in Dec. might look like for me:
1 cup heavy cream 8 Tbs butter 16 oz ribeye steak 16 oz boneless pork chop 4 eggs 24 oz coffee 4333 calories 371g fat 77% 242g protein 22% 6g carb 1% How does that look? Any thoughts or comments? That would give me enough calories so that I should gain about 13 pounds. |
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| jeff |
I do believe that minor gains or losses could be insignificant. There are lots of things that go on in our bodies that can cause us to gain or lose a couple of pounds. But, not gaining in the face of 1000 excess calories per day does seem pretty significant to me. There are not too many things that could explain that. Calories are either used for energy, stored as fat(or to build muscle, or other tissue I suppose, or somehow disposed of. That's about it. |
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| Jaime |
Dean, you seriously need to quit teasing a gal like this.
I'd join you but I am horrible at tracking anything. |
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| Jaime |
Do you mean all activities?
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| Dean |
jeff, If gaining or losing up to 10 lbs is not significant, as you said, then why would not gaining be significant? I'm totally confused. We are talking about a continuum here, right? That would be -10 to +10. Since 0 falls right in the middle of that continuum, then that would make it an insignificant event. For statistical purposes, it would. That range is what we would consider insignificant. The other range is extra calories, which you have already defined as 1000-2000. So, those 1000 extra calories fall at the lowest end of that range. So, how could this be significant?
I'm not saying it is an insignificant event in and of itself. I think it is a wonderful thing that Red is having these responses in her own experiments on her own WOE. But, for purposes that you have described, I was only saying it was insignificant within that framework. I think we are getting mixed up here, about what I was saying. Hell, I think I am getting mixed up!
Within the context of this MAM Experiment, we have to determine (as you clearly stated) what constitutes significant versus insignificant results. I think that is what you were trying to establish when you said...
I think you were simply trying to establish some sort of parameters for this experiment. If we are all doing our own little experiments, and coming up with our own little conclusions about whatever we think about whatever, then this really ceases to be any type of experiment that will disprove any theory. And, that is not meant to belittle Red's or jeff's accomplishments or discoveries or anything. I think it is great that they are figuring things out for themselves. But, that is only going to apply to them, and cannot be generalized to everyone. We all generalize. I do it myself all the time. It is natural to want to figure things out for the general population. But, perhaps it is not possible. Just a thought. Maybe all these theories are worthless when we try to apply them to the general population, and say that all people will get x results if they do y. I would still like to do a controlled experiment with whoever wants to do it. But, we will need to establish some parameters and stick to them, in order to make some sense out of the data. jeff, are you still interested in that? I think if two of us do the same thing, and we come up with similar results, we can possibly start to make some generalizations that make a little sense.
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| Red |
OK, for the next two weeks, I'm going to try to eat even more calories. I don't know how much, but, by Jove, if I have to start drinking melted fat, I'll do it! | ||||||||||
| Dean |
Food calories are a measure of the potential energy in the food. Food that is eaten simply supplies substrates that are used in the production of ATP. ATP is the molecule that then supplies the energy needed to do work in the body at the cellular level. So measuring calories in food is a tricky thing. And measuring calories in the use of this food is even more tricky. Calories are not things, calories are like miles or meters, it's a unit of measurement. It ultimately is supposed to be a measurement of the energy that will be used by the body. To say 3500 calories = 1 pound is an extremely simplistic way of looking at it. But, it's just a way to help people control their food intake and remain at a certain weight. It says that the measurement of potential energy in a certain food will end up being converted to a measurement of body fat or muscle or whatever. A huge simplification, because the steps that go on between that bite of turkey and that roll of excess fat around one's mid section are so fricken complex that it boggles every scientist's mind, believe me. |
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| jeff |
Yes, that is exactly what my intent was. Also, I did not mean to imply that 10 lbs would be insingnificant. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe 2 or 3. I was merely asking what conclusions would we draw from each of those potential results. |
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| jeff |
Ok,let's substitute "food" for calories. |
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| Dean |
Yes. I understand. But 0 still falls between -3 and +3. Which still makes Red's 0 lb gain/loss insignificant, right?
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| Dean |
OK. Now that makes more sense. It is so hard to determine just what happens to food though, isn't it? I mean, does it go right through us, or do certain molecules get absorbed and certain one's don't? This is why the calorie theory has been criticized as being WAY too simple of a measurement of energy or weight gain (not to mention fat gain versus muscle gain). |
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| jeff |
It would be insignificant as far as change, (or no change), but when looked at in the context or many thousands of excess calories, no, it is not insignificant. I find it very significant. |
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| Dean |
But, we ARE talking about it in the context of excess calories. And, Red has only been doing 1000 extra calories per day. We were talking about doing like 2000 extra calories. So, I'm totally confused. If you were saying that if we gain or lose 2 or 3 lbs after eating 2000 extra calories per day over 30 days that that would NOT be significant, then how can you say that Red's situation, where she is eating 1000 extra calories per day over 13 days IS significant?
jeff, what does this mean?
I took it to mean you thought this was insignificant. I took no(w) change = insignificant. |
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| Red |
I think Jeff is saying that a 2 or 3 lb gain wouldn't be significant in the context of fat gain. That a 2 or 3 lb gain would not prove that any fat was stored, as a person's body can easily hold on to 2 or 3 lbs in water/salt, etc. in a given day. Not that anything other than a gain or loss of 10 lbs is insignificant. Personally, I think any change or lack of change is meaningful. Even if you were expecting to gain 20 lbs and only gained 5, that would still be hugely significant. Anything other than the expected gain is meaningful. And I have definitely experienced something other than the expected gain. | ||||||||||