| Archive for The Magic Bus Trip Never get off the Bus! |
| Dean |
April 30 Day Zero Carb ChallengeI may have to change the title of this thread, but at this time I am aiming for a true carnivore zero carb Challenge. I want to break free from all other substances for just ONE month!I plan on doing no supplements, no medicines (I'll just suffer through the inevitable headaches, etc.). I will drink only ice water during these 30 days. I'm going to be SUPER strict about this. No slip ups allowed. Here is a list of the things I will consume. * Ice Water (lots) * Cod Liver Oil (daily) * Beef (as raw as possible) (daily) * Eggs (lots of raw egg yolks eaten plain) (daily) * Deer * Bison * Chicken * Turkey * Pork * Fish & Seafood * Any other meat (as long as it's clean cuts only) * Beef Tallow (to cook eggs in mainly) All of these things are good to go. All the meats will be clean cuts... nothing processed in any way. And nothing added... no salt, pepper or spices. I will probably consume TONS of animal fat! This will REALLY help me get through the month, I'm sure. It's the following that I may want to include, but am not sure whether I should. * Herbs & Spices (for meats) (no salt, though) * Butter * Hot Sauce (to mix with butter for chicken hot wings) * Coconut Milk/Oil & Vanilla/Almond Extract (for smoothies) (no fruit) * Mayo & Mustard & Spices (for deviled eggs) The mayo is really questionable, since it is mostly soy bean oil! I need some feedback about what ya'll think. This is to be an "elimination" type diet... a "cleansing fast" of sorts. It is going to last 30 days max. I invite anyone who thinks they can do this to get prepared for the upcoming month. You've got a little over a dozen days to start cutting down on any non-animal foods. The more you cut out these non-food items, the easier it will be once April arrives. I am certain that I will lose body fat on this fast. I have done a very similar diet to this, but did include super low carb veggies, and got down to the lowest weight and body fat I've ever had in my adult life. But, my goal here is to really try and cleanse myself of bad food, and get my body used to eating VLC/ZC, and get as FFA and Keto Adapted as possible... or at least get that process underway. This should also really clean out my GI tract. Any thoughts... or any other subjects for this experiment? 
One does not have to do the whole 30 Days. Anyone could just go for as many days in a row as they can... just to give me some company on my first few days into this. 
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| Dave |
Dean,
count me in! I've wanted to do something like this as a group for a while. What about cheese? |
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| Dean |
Alright, Dave!
Cheese has a lot of sodium and other chemicals and such. I personally am concerned about some allergy issues with all dairy. So, while butter may be included, I think cheese may be out. This will be a great opportunity to find out what is giving me problems. Meat/fat and eggs don't give me any issues at all, so this is what I am choosing to do on this elimination diet. At the same time, this is obviously gonna be a great induction period for me to get going on sticking to VLC for the long haul, which I seriously want to do. 
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| Dave |
Yep,
Sounds good, I've been fighting the cheese demon as well! |
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| Red |
I'm in!
Although, Dean, I would suggest you do not include hot sauces, herbs, mayo, etc. They contain natural chemicals (salicylates, etc.) and added chemicals, like MSG that will affect your body's ability to cleanse itself and also causes an insulin release. You will notice a much more drastic effect without those foods. If you do want to add any seasonings, stick to plain salt, lo-salt, which is potassium chloride, garlic and chives only, which are all very low-chemical. Hot peppers are very high in salicylates, so hot sauce is definitely something you should omit. |
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| Dean |
Red,
Thanks so much for the feedback. It's just what I was wanting!
And welcome to this Challenge. It should be very fun! 
So, here's the Challenge as I see it shaping up. People can start on April 1st and go as long as possible. I'm going for the entire 30 days! I am very determined to do this, and have already started cutting out as many things as I can, other than these permitted foods: * Water * Cod Liver Oil * Meat (only fresh, clean cuts of muscle/fat/organs... no processed meat, no bacon, no sausage, etc) (raw/rare as possible) * Eggs (lots of raw egg yolks would be really good) * Tallow/Lard nothing added to food... no herbs/spices/salt no supplements, medicines or drugs of any kind... no coffee, tea, wine, etc. no dairy eat as much animal fat as possible (egg yolks are very high in fat) (this will really help getting through this) So... what do ya'll think about: * Butter (tallow or lard could be used instead, so this might not be too big a deal... I'm rendering a ton of beef fat this week) * Coconut Smoothies/Custard (see my recipes) they include: raw egg yolks coconut milk coconut oil cinnamon nutmeg real vanilla extract real almond extract Should we just do paleo carnivore food only? That's gonna be tough... but, I'm game for anything at this point. 
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| Red |
I, personally, would go all animal (i.e. no coconut or vanilla or anything like that). I mean you're almost 100% of the way there... why not go for the full monty! Butter is a question mark for me too. I'm thinking of going full blown meat, egg and absolutely zero dairy, as once I start eating butter, it's just a hop, skip and a jump to guzzling cream... 
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| Dean |
That sounds fine to me, especially since I have a TON of angus beef fat to render this week... enough to get through the whole month. Plus, I always save all the fat from any chicken or turkey or duck I roast. I put this on the meat before reheating, and it is so moist and so satiating. So, I really don't need butter, and would also like doing 100% paleo carnivore. I'd really like to do 100% raw paleo carnivore... but, I think that may be for another month.
So, Dave (or anyone else that wants to jump into this Challenge) what do you think of doing the real deal... the super strict version of Bear's diet?
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| Jaime |
What is the super strict version? |
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| Dave |
Dean,
I've decided to get a head start and start today. We all my cheating and not monitoring, I've noticed that I've gained weight! 
161.4 kilos today. That's up from 150 kilos. It's the carb binging that's done it! I'm going to use butter, but no spices or salt. I had 4 eggs fried in butter this morning, and 4 lamb chump chops fried in butter for lunch. Night time is a killer for me though! I want to get started, so I can easily start our challenge come April Fools day! |
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| Dean |
Well, Jaime, Basically it is consuming only: * Meat (only fresh, clean cuts of animal muscle / fat / organs) * Eggs * Butter (maybe) no processed meat, no bacon, no sausage no herbs, spices, or salt no supplements, medicines, or drugs of any kind no coffee, tea, or wine (only water) no dairy (except perhaps butter?) LOTS of animal fat! Plenty of raw/rare meat and eggs We're still working out the details. But, it's basically doing just animal food (as a true carnivore in the wild would do). Read this thread. It all starts April 1, 2007 12:00am GMT/MBT (Magic Bus Time)
It will go for the whole month of April... 30 Days... if ya can hang that long. If not, at least you tried. You might make it a few days, or a couple weeks. Either way, your body will thank you!
Me... I'm goin' for the entire 30 Days!
Wanna join in? |
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| Dean |
That's exactly what I'm doing, Dave! I have two apples, about one pound of hot pepper cheese, and a pound of butter to eat up. I have already stopped using all herbs/spices and salt on my food. I have one glass of wine left to drink, which I'll drink tonight. I have not touched coffee all year, so that won't be a problem. I've got a couple cans of coconut milk to make some smoothies. I'm not going to put any fruit in them. I won't buy any more coconut milk, cheese, fruit, or any thing not on the list. By the time April gets here, I should be very ready to go. So, are you cool with not including coconut oil or mayo or anything like that? Red wants to do total carnivore foods. I really do as well. I guess butter is the only thing to decide on. It's mostly fat, but it's also dairy. I don't know what to think about that. I'm gonna render a whole bunch of beef fat this week. That way, I can do without butter. We could make butter optional. But, what do you think about all the rest? I'd really like to make this a very strict "fast". Try to free ourselves from the junk... let our bodies heal, etc. Let's see how many days we can make it. What do you think, Dave? |
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| Jaime |
This is kinda what I currently do......
>Basically it is consuming only: >* Meat (only fresh, clean cuts of animal muscle / fat / organs) I eat that now. Sometimes raw...sometimes cooked. >* Eggs I need to buy a henhouse I eat so many of them. >* Butter (maybe) I was considering getting some unsalted butter and using it to cook my eggs in or using a little of it when I am cooking fish. I was going to give it a trial period and if it does congest my sinuses then I will drop it and let the kids finish it off and go back to my oils. >no processed meat, no bacon, no sausage I don't eat any processed meat and I make my own sausage patties from fresh ground pork if I desire them (which I haven't in a very long time) >no herbs, spices, or salt I can live without salt but I got to have my herbs and spices. I do not use a lot of them. Just enough to liven up flavours. >no supplements, medicines, or drugs of any kind I take one aspirin a day since my heart attack and I use calcium, magnesium and a vit D supplement. Pottasium too. What about birth control pills? I'm considering going back on them because I want to start dating again. (Been single far too long since the ex bf and it is getting a little....lonely.) >no coffee, tea, or wine (only water) I only drink water(2 litres minimum daily) and 2 green teas a day with a bit of lemon juice in them. I *could* switch to decaf tea or do a lemon slice in hot water. I NEED something hot in the morning and before I go to bed at night. >no dairy (except perhaps butter?) I can live without dairy. I think I am going to try the unsalted butter I mentioned above and see how that goes. >LOTS of animal fat! Plenty of raw/rare meat and eggs Completely doable. YUM!! >Wanna join in? I'll start tomorrow (Tuesday March 20) as long as I can keep my herbs and spices and you can catch up with me for April. I can give up the tea but I need to keep the spices/herbs. The reason I want to start early is because I have an exercise class starting on April 17 and want to be out of any 'Induction flu' before then. Okay? |
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| Dave |
I think unsalted butter should be optional.
no coconut or mayo - deal! |
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| Jaime |
What about homemade mayo? I make my own..no salt added.
It's completely 0 carbs except for the egg. |
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| Dean |
You won't miss them for a few days, will you?
This is about a "cleansing fast"... and an "elimination" diet, to later find out what gives one problems, after they add it back in. Actually, some elimination diets like this one are much stricter. For instance, they say you can only eat wild game meat (no beef, chicken, etc).
Just drink a cup of hot water. You'll survive. 
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| Dean |
What's in it? |
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| Dean |
I'm OK with this. Red, how 'bout you? I've decided that even if unsalted butter is optional, I can do without it. I'm with Red on wanting to do zero dairy. I will probably start eating pork steaks, cuz they have so much fat! I know I'm gonna need lots of animal fat for this to work. I'm planning on tracking my calories and macronutrient percentages in FitDay and reporting them here. I will probably consume close to 5000 calories a day with all the animal fat. I'll prove, as jeff did, that in the absence of carbs, dietary fat doesn't go to fat stores. |
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| Dean |
BTW. I doubt I will be able to do this past the 30 days. I don't know that I would want to. Even Bear had to use coffee and spices and homemade mayo and even dairy to be able to do this for the long haul. This isn't the way I plan to eat forever. I don't think it's possible. Although, there are those who have gone several years eating nothing but raw meat and fat and organs. I don't know how they do it.
I'm with Jaime. I think I'm gonna miss my spices and even butter and hot sauce for wings, etc. But, addictions are hard to see through. When I get close to 30 days, hopefully I'll be able to see what I REALLY wanna eat. And, when I add these desired things back in, I will be able to see how they affect me. That's the whole point of doing an elimination diet. Another reason is to give the body a chance to heal itself. That thread Jewel started: http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about567.html That sums up what I'm talking about. We once consumed just raw meat. The raw meat had the enzymes in it to help digest it. Our bodies did not have to divert precious resources away from immunity functions, etc. to help digest our food. That is the great benefit of a raw diet. When we start adding not only cooked food into our diets, but all sorts of processed crap that our body not only has to digest, but figure out how to deal with from an immune system response... trying to deal with all this foreign crap invading our bodies... it's no wonder we're all so sick! 
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| Jaime |
Olive oil 1 egg plus 1 egg yolk dry mustard I could probably make it without the dry mustard. Never tried that before but nothing is impossible. |
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| Jaime |
Yes!! LOL! But I could try it without them for a few days. It is really only the fish I season with lemon and dill. I eat meats plain...generally raw as I like the taste of raw meat by itself. The one thing I will really miss giving up is natural peanut butter. I melted a tablespoon of it into hot scrambled eggs and eat them that way. My ex bf got me hooked onto that because he eats his that way. |
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| Billi-Jean |
Okay, I think I'm up for this challenge too!
I'm willing to get rid of the coffee, dairy/butter, herbs and salt, coconut oil and processed meats. That just leaves meat, fish, poultry and eggs, right? I assume no canned fish allowed? My only problem will be getting enough fat as I still can't find anyone willing to sell or give me animal fat. I've been resorting to buying some ready-made lard from the supermarket but the darn stuff has no info on it except: Ingredients - Animal Fat 
Do you guys think it's okay to keep eating this stuff? I don't know where I'll get my extra fat from otherwise... |
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| Dave |
I'm in the same boat as BJ, since we live in the same city.
It really is pathetic how little animal fat there is out there! I am using butter for that reason. Butter doesn't affect me the way other dairy does. |
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| Jaime |
Here is a thought......what about using ghee? | ||||||
| Red |
I would say no to the mayo since it most likely has vegetable oil of some sort. I say animal only for this challenge! For me, anyway!
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| Red |
I'm also waffling about butter. I think I'll continue with unsalted butter for now and come April 1st, I'll make my decision then. I'm OK with it being optional for each challenger. |
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| Jaime |
Well my *need* to get under 350 pounds is much more important to me then worrying about the olives made to make the olive oil and if this were a true *animal only* challenge then butter should not be used either. |
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| Red |
Oh, I wasn't implying that it should be animal products only on principle, but because olive oil is very high in phenolic compounds and salicylates that can hinder weight loss and interfere with detoxing. Also olive oil is generally not included in elimination diets because it's highly reactive, because of above mentioned phenols and vegetable toxins. But if you only have a small amount in a day, then it shouldn't be an issue. This challenge is just that - a challenge! Giving up olive oil for the month might even help you get under 350!
Isn't butter an animal product?? I probably won't be using it, as I mentioned above, but I think it's pretty benign in the grand scheme of things, unless one is allergic to casein. |
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| jeff |
It will be fun to be a spectator for a change! I think it's great that you all seem so excited about this. I think it will be a very interesting experience.
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| Billi-Jean |
hmmm, 'interesting' is right...I think I'm already experiencing caffeine and dairy withdrawal just anticipating the upcoming challenge!
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| jeff |
That would do if for me!
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| Red |
Me too! I haven't had any dairy yet today (just to practice) and I'm craving it, for sure! I want butter! | ||||||
| Jaime |
I don't use the mayo every day. Less then twice a month. Sorry about my snarkiness. I'm pmsing all over the place plus this last two weeks has been very stressful with the arrival of my grandson. His parents live with me (and have been for the last 3 years) and now he does as well so there is a lot of family adjustments going on here. Fortunately today there was one bright spot which might make my stress levels drop significantly in the next few weeks. Now back to the April Challenge. I will reconsider the olive oil but I need a fat to cook with and do not have a supply of beef fat to render. Any suggestions? |
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| Red |
How do you do with lard? Or chicken fat? I get a huge amount of lard out of the pork belly slices that I eat for breakfast and end up frying my steaks, etc. in that. And I always save and use all the fat that renders out of roast/fried chicken, etc., too. You can also buy just regular tenderflake lard from the grocery store in a pinch. Not much flavour, but good for frying.
Congratulations on being a grandparent! I can't imagine even having a child, let alone a child with a newborn! |
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| Jaime |
I have not used it for years but isn't Tenderflake lard hydrogenated? I do okay with chicken fat. I will have to save it up however. Don't have any at the moment. |
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| Red |
Not according to the label, but I could be wrong. I think they have to say if it's hydrogenated, but I'm not actually positive. All the ingredient list says is 'lard'. |
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| Jaime |
I did a search and according to the maple Leaf Foods website it is now non-hydrogenated. http://www.mapleleaf.com/Consumer...Brands/OpenBrand_Tenderflake.aspx http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/September2005/22/c2719.html I'll use that then.
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| Dean |
OK.
I think butter should be optional. And I may opt out of using it, just cuz I wanna put some distance between using dairy and getting free from it. And, I don't want to mess up the "elimination" part of this diet. Although, perhaps eating butter would not mess that up. Any thoughts on this? Since so many have problems getting animal fat (which is weird, since they throw away huge garbage cans full of it every week at the 24 hour grocery store that is two blocks from me, and there are meat processors all around me that give away pork fat and beef fat by the tons) then butter is a real good source for it. So for those who can't get any animal fat, or don't wanna rely on just fat drippings from roasted chicken, turkey, etc., then, yah, unsalted butter IS animal fat. It's just not paleo carnivore food. That's what I'm kind of wanting to do. Strict paleo carnivore. But, others can do butter. I think it is a very beneficial thing to eat, actually. Help me out here. What is not good about butter? WPF/Sally Fallon swears by it. And, of course, I love it! As far as olive oil... that falls into the same category as coconut oil. It's definitely NOT paleo or carnivore. Jaime, since you say you only use it twice a month, you should be able to abstain. I totally understand your concern for getting enough fat. That is so essential for all of us, if we are gonna make it on this Challenge. So, let's keep posting ideas on how to get animal fat sources. Lard, tallow, butter, roasted poultry drippings, and what else? As far as the lard one gets at the store. I'd be careful, cuz I've heard some of that crap is hydrogenated, which is VERY bad for you! As far as supplements go. If you MUST have them, it's fine. But, I for one want to break free from everything other than animal meat / fat / organs, and then add things back come May. That is one of the most important aspects of doing this... the "elimination" part of it. I will absolutely add things back into my diet, cuz it won't work for me otherwise... just too boring. BUT... It would be nice to be able to identify any substances (spices, supplements, or what have you) that are giving me any reactions. I have wanted to do that for a very long time. I just recently found out that it was potassium supps that were giving me really bad dizzy spells last fall. I thought I was having occlusions in my arteries or something. Very scary indeed!
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| Jaime |
Dean I said I had olive oil MAYO twice a month. I eat olive oil everyday but Red just steered me onto a non-hydrogenated source of lard that is a well known brand here in Canada so I can give up the olive oil and use the lard in it's place. I remember when you were having the dizzy spells so you do what you feel you must. Okay? |
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| Dean |
So, is everyone in agreement to the following?
* carbs will be so close to zero that we can surely say they are * eat only from the animal kingdom - animal flesh, fat, organs (nothing processed/canned - just fresh, clean cuts, raw or rare as possible) - eggs (remember, raw egg yolks are a great source of fat, as well as so many nutrients) - butter (unsalted only) (I may or may not do it - it supposed to be so healthy, and it IS animal fat) - water (the only beverage is water - iced, hot, or plain )
* no salt, herbs, spices, coffee, tea, wine, non-animal oils, condiments, sauces, etc. * supplements/meds/drugs (optional) (I'll opt for zero, and encourage others to do the same) * we need to eat lots of animal fat for this to even have a chance - and drink plenty of water It's great that we already have FIVE participants! 
Billi-Jean Dave Dean Jaime Red So... what do ya'll think? And, who else will join us brave experimenting subjects? Better get started on the transition to this... otherwise it will be too big a shock on our systems. |
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| Red |
Sounds great! I'm going to miss my decaf coffee, salt, cream and my club soda! Oh, and mayo, although I only have mayo about once a month. So this month, I'll just have to do without. | ||||||
| Dean |
Yes... I'm gonna miss my bbq beef ribs, chicken hot wings (I mix butter and hot sauce), coconut custard and smoothies (with berries), deviled eggs, spices on meat (I usually use a lot of different spices), and some other things that my brain is blocking at the moment (in anticipation of April).
But, I think it will be a great opportunity to cleanse, and to psychologically set the stages for the future. I wanna be able to look back and think "if I could do that, then doing without this or that should be no problem". Hell, if Klondike can happily exist day in and day out, for months on end, with nothing but chunks of deer muscle meat and fat, and still cry for more (every hour! it seems  ), then Bear is absolutely correct in saying "variety is for the mind".
Of course, Grace Slick was probably equally correct when she said "feed your head"! 
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| Dean |
Well, in preparation for this Challenge, the only thing I've eaten so far today is a kc strip steak of black angus beef. It had a ton of fat on it, and was really thick. I only seared it for about 5 seconds or so on both sides and the edges. It was totally raw on the inside, with less than a millimeter of cooked. The thick chunk of fat on this steak (I instructed the processor to leave all the fat trimmings on) was surprisingly edible raw.
Funny thing is, whenever I cook steaks, even very rare, it seems I can just eat them down with no problem, no matter how big they are. But, not so with this raw meat. After eating only about 4 oz of this 10 oz steak, I had to put away the other 6 oz. I was completely "full". I wonder if, as our body receives all this nutrient dense food, it sends a message to our brains saying "had enough". I bet it would be so impossible to overeat on a completely raw meat diet. |
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| jeff |
Do any of you have any intentions of trying to limit protein at all? Dean, for instance, if you are eating say 5000 calories per day, and a lot more protein than your body needs, you might possibly gain a little. I do think some of the excess protein can be stored as body fat. | ||||||
| Jaime |
I'm in agreement. |
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| Dave |
Do you reckon, just focussing on meat, could be a problem. Too high in protein? |
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| jeff |
I think it's possible. I was only able to eat 2 or 3 eggs yolks, and about 10-12 ounces of meat per day without going over the limit for the amount of protein my body would need. We're only talking about maybe 1000 calories there. You're going to be eating a lot of fat.....just fat.....to get those calories up. |
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| Red |
I'll be watching protein, as usual. My focus will be on eggs during the day and meat for dinner only, which helps. I just can't really overdo it on the protein or my weight loss stalls. The reason for giving up all the other little extras is not to eat more meat, for me, but to hopefully just eat less and crave less and to cleanse. I doubt my calories will be higher - they'll probably be much lower. | ||||||
| Dean |
Yah, that is why it is good that we are including butter, and since it has so many good nutrients, I may go ahead and eat it, since I will do no supps.
If we eat lots of butter, and really rare meat, we should be able to limit protein. But, jeff is correct, we should really watch this. Excess protein is not good anyway. That was my point about the raw meat. I will try to focus on eating raw beef cuts every day, since they just fill you up with no problem at all. I am so satiated after eating just 4 oz of raw beef! And, if I eat lots of butter and tallow, and even raw fat, I should be fine. I am thinking that with all the fat, my calories should be through the roof. But, it seems that jeff had problems with eating all that fat. Why, jeff? |
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| jeff |
Try eating a half stick of butter and a couple of Tbs. of coconut oil when you are not even the least bit hungry. You'll see why. However, I do think it would be easier to eat that much animal fat....as in the fat from a steak.
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| Dean |
I agree with Red, here. My primary reason is to cleanse, and put a firm space between eating junk and eating healthy... eating mainly for health, rather than pleasure. So, perhaps my calories won't be that high. I may not be able to do that. Perhaps I shouldn't even track them. Still, I think that if we don't eat enough fat (like 70-80%) we are gonna have headaches and all sorts of issues. So, my advice is to limit protein and eat all the fat you want. Eat fatty cuts of meat, egg yolks, cook eggs and meat in butter, pour saved drippings over poultry before reheating, etc. And just put a small portion of food on your plate. You will be very satiated after eating just a small amount of raw/rare meat and fat.
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| Dave |
Well today, my hunger has totally dropped!
I had a small amount of zero carb cheese for breakfast (not hungry) and lunch I could only stomach three lamb chops (seered but raw). It's like my body is putting the breaks on calories. It's amazing the difference between low carb and zero carb! The only problems, like always will be mental cravings! |
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| Billi-Jean |
Yep, I'm in agreement too!
Am 'practicing' by not having coffee today...  Boy, this is tough!
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| Billi-Jean |
So true, Dave!
Damn, I wish my brain would just do as it's told! It seems to have a mind of its own!
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| Jaime |
I'm glad that I am not the only one who has to deal with that. Lampchops. Mmmmmmmmmmmm.
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| jeff |
I think calories should be tracked, along with protein and fat. I think the more information we have, the better. |
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| Red |
I agree completely. Although I'm a manic calorie/macronutrient counter. I have tracked all my food in fitday for over two years. I have to admit, it's a great reference and shows me all sorts of trends I wouldn't otherwise be able to identify. I don't recommend anyone is as obsessive as I am, but for the purposes of this challenge, it's a good idea. Also, weigh and measure yourselves before you start and when you're done at the end of April. |
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| jeff |
The protein aspect of this might be an idea for another experiment for me. I'm thinking maybe of eating my "normal" protein, which is about double my daily requirement, but keeping my total calories about where they were for the high fat-high cal experiment. This might tell us how excess protein is handled on a near zero carb diet. Any thoughts? I'll play aroung with Fitday a bit and see what I can come up with. |
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| Red |
Yes, that would really answer a lot of questions to do with gluconeogenesis. | ||||||
| jeff |
Damn, we're having us some fun now, aren't we?
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| Red |
You're the perfect guinea pig, Jeff. Not only do you have a lean body, perfect for experimenting, but you're also always game to try anything! | ||||||
| jeff |
Ummm......thanks......I think. Yeah, I'll try just about anything once.
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| Heather |
Seems I got here just in time, Jeff's in the mood to try anything.
This seems like a challenge I can do. I have a problem with finding a fat source as I would love to give up the butter to see what happens and I won't do pork products. I'm addicted to the tabasco, damn. And my vitamins. And my decaf. Oh boy. |
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| Red |
Why no pork? Religious reasons? | ||||||
| Dean |
I gave up pork nearly a year ago... haven't touched it since. But, since it's such a good source of fat, I may do it in April. I too want to avoid butter.
So, Heather... does that mean you're with us?
We do need a Jedi in this group, for sure!
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| Dean |
jeff, I would be careful about overdoing protein. I don't know if it's really that good to do that. Experimenting with excess fat is one thing, but excess protein... I wouldn't wanna do it. Maybe I'm just reacting to crap that may not be true. ??? |
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| Dean |
Zero carb = zero appetite!
Yesterday I ate 4 oz of raw beef, and then some cooked turkey with saved turkey fat later on. Today all I've had is a little turkey with saved turkey fat. I have no hunger whatsoever! I woke up that way, and have not had any feelings of hunger all day and night. April is gonna be very interesting indeed!
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| Dean |
So... who's gonna take this to only animal flesh/fat/organs and eggs? I'm game for that! I'll sure miss my butter!
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| Dean |
Yes, Dr. jeff. No problem. I agree. And with you joining this Challenge, we will have just that much more information, huh?
BTW... the current temp in KC right now is 69! 
Just wanted to give you that bit of information!
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| Jaime |
Just thought I would mention that I am going to be packing and moving during the April challenge so that makes things much more challenging for me. I hope I can stick with it.
My transfer came through today. I've been waiting for it for 3 years. |
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| Dean |
Sounds like you'll be way too busy to eat junk food, then.
One carnivorous meal in the AM... and another in the PM. Should be a breeze!
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| Dave |
Please note: Dave is not going to track calories.
Thank you for listening. |
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| Dean |
Dave,
Perhaps what we can do, is everybody can just post exactly what they eat each day... and Dr. jeff (with the help of his lovely assistant? ) can plug it all into FitDay, and then produce the reports to send onto his lab.
J/K, jeff.
Actually, I think jeff needs to join us. Then he'd know what it's like to have WITHDRAWALS!!! ... like all us sugar addicts!
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| Jaime |
Yes I was thinking about that this evening when I was watching ConAir. It will be easy for me to eat raw while doing all the packing. No cooking required for me but I still have to cook for my son. |
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| Jaime |
Or us starch addicts. BTW shouldn't we all change our WOE to reflect the challenge? |
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| Dean |
Or we could just change our avatars to some sort of carnivorous beast!
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| Jaime |
I thought Klondike *was* a carnivorous beast.
And such a cutie. 
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| Red |
Me! I just made some ghee, but I'll just try to eat it all before April 1st. Which shouldn't be a problem.
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| jeff |
Good timing Heather.....and not a moment too soon!!
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| jeff |
Actually, I was not thinking of "overdoing" the protein......just doing my "normal" amount, but along with the higher calorie level to see how my body will handle the excess pretein in the prescence of excess calories. The protein would be excess in that it would be more than my body requires, but not excess in that it would be my normal amount. |
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| Ryan |
Jeff, here is a follow up question I posed to Dr. Mike after his excellent answer yesterday about where does the extra fat go. It seemed to follow along with the discussion here.
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| jeff |
Thanks Ryan. Well, there we have it. I guess I don't have to do my experiment after all. Unless you guys really want me to.
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| Billi-Jean |
Good post, thanks Ryan!  Well, that's quite reassuring -good to not have to worry too much about a bit of extra protein sneaking in here and there.
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| Ryan |
I'm wondering now if that was the reason that I never felt well on ketosis - not enough protein. If most of it was being converted to glucose, there wouldn't have been much left over for bodily needs and growing muscle. I can barely workout while in ketosis and I didn't seem to get used to it. Maybe a high protein, moderate fat, VLC approach would work better both for feeling well and for draining these last few pounds off. 
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| jeff |
Hmmm, so maybe the answer is more protein, not less???? The thing is though, when it comes to glucose production Dr. Mike says it comes from both protein and fat, but not how much from each. If it comes mostly from protein, then a person's protein requirements could go up.....way up! |
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| Ryan |
That was what I was trying to ask him. It seems like if the protein becomes an inefficient stand-in for the necessary glucose, then you would need a lot of it. He made it sound like the average person would need 130 g of glucose a day, which would require 186 g of protein just for glucose. Probably a little less, since some glucose can come from triglycerides. I could see a possible requirement of 250 g or so of protein for someone with a fair amount of lean mass. I'm not sure how you would get that much without protein shakes. I have a hard time with 150 g a day. It's pretty filling. |
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| jeff |
I average about 170g protein a day. To get much more than that, I would really have to force it. So, maybe for all practical purposes it is pretty much impossible to eat too much protein while on a very low carb diet? | ||||||
| Ryan |
I think so, unless you are forcing down a lot of protein shakes or eating nothing but egg whites and chicken breasts. | ||||||
| Red |
Jeff, what's your typical fat to protein ratio in %? Unless I'm purposely adding fat to meals as a supplement, mine is usually around 70% fat. I have to work to get it to 80% and then my calories are just ridiculous. |
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| jeff |
Unless I "supplement" with fat, I tend to be around 65% fat, 35% protein. |
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| Dave |
This is where all the analysing fails.
All the ratios and the calorie amounts and all that jazz. What was caveman bob eating? |
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| Heather |
I found a solution to my fat situation last night when I was frying regular ground beef for the kids supper, I just poured all the excess fat into another pot and simmered it until it was pure fat. The regular beef has plenty of fat I can scoop and use for myself through April.
And that's a yes I will join. I only eat herbivores, pork is not in that category. As a farm kid I was educated on what pigs will and will not ingest and the "will not eat" list is very, very, very small. They are scavengers. I used to eat pork but I can't/won't now, it's a personal decision. There are so many reasons I'm making myself sick thinking about them. Sorry. |
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| Heather |
I just thought of something, I am not the greatest at calorie counting. It's like a pile of this and a heap of that. I am not a measurer but will do my best to guess. I have to admit how much I eat?????  This will be the ultimate in accountability but will be so interesting to actually see instead of hiding/ignoring. Maybe it's time for some enlightening.
And did someone mention body measurements, before and after? |
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| jeff |
I'll be glad to help you with the measurements, Heather.
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| Billi-Jean |
Ryan and jeff, interesting points...I know I'm only a 'novice' at this but I have to say that I have noticed that when I try to 'force' my fat/protein ratio to 80%:20% and stick to only 60-70g protein only (which is still higher than my 47g 'requirement'), I don't feel as good as on days when I don't bother to restrict protein and don't force myself to eat heaps of extra fat. About a week ago I got sick of trying to keep my 80:20% ratio and for a few days just ate as much protein and fat as I liked. Basically it came down to eating meat with its fat and maybe around a couple of tablespoons of fat that I had used to cook the meat in. With whole eggs and cheese, I was getting about 110 to 130g protein and my percentages were around 65-70% fat and 30-35% protein. I thought I was feeling better and stronger coz I was getting keto-adapted...so, spurred on by this thought, I got 'strict' again and cut my protein way back and got my fat intake way up. But these last few days of this has left me feeling pretty *blah* and weak again, even though my calories have been up around 2000. |
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| Dean |
GREAT! We are now up to SIX participants!
And, we have a Jedi in our midst!
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| Dean |
I give up... Atkins shakes?
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| Dave |
As long as he was including it in his carb count!! |
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| Dean |
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| Dean |
So... I was thinking about the elimination part of this Challenge, and I have decided to try to "go all the way" with this.
I am gonna eat ONLY fresh animal flesh / fat / organs and drink only water. No dairy and no eggs. Some people have allergic reactions to eggs. How will I know if I do until I do an elimination of them. It's like the other day, I ate a bunch of that wonderful hot pepper cheese on a burger with no reaction... then later I put a ton of that cheese on four eggs fried in butter. Right away I got itchy eyes and stuffed up sinuses. Now, was it the butter that caused that?... the cheese?... or was it the eggs? Since I had dairy earlier with no reactions, and only reacted when I had the cheese on eggs, perhaps it was the eggs. All I know is I can find out a lot if I go 30 days without diary AND eggs. And with no eggs... I'll be absolute zero carb!
So... is there anyone else that is crazy enough to wanna follow me on this total paleo carnivore zero carb 30 day challenge?
Good chance to cleanse, and later find out what may cause reactions and cravings, etc.
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