Jake
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Jake's JournalHey all
My name is Jake. I guess I am the newest member of The Magic Bus. I was on a standard 1000 calorie per day diet from May 2005 to December 2006. My weight was reduced from 252 pounds to 139 pounds. The trouble was that I, as a 5'9 male, was still fat. I concluded that I must have lost muscle mass.
Earlier this year I gained about 45 pounds in 5 weeks (not kidding) after carb binging. I started zero carbing on about 1100 cals per day in March and got my weight down to 161.5 pounds by April 19 (the first 15 pounds flew off, followed by a trickle). After eating unlimited beef and water since then, I woke up today at 188 pounds. I know this sounds crazy but I am not sure if I gained fat, I just know all my clothes either don't fit or are very tight. What do you all think I should do? I wish I had a before pic. After Jeff's experiments I though one could not gain fat on zero carb.
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jeff
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Hi Jake. First, let me welcome you aboard the Magic Bus.  You do face an interesting dilemma. How does your body look now? Do you look or feel fat? Have you been working out? It could be that with the increased protein you may have put on some muscle.
When you say you were eating "unlimited" beef, do you have any idea how much? I do think it is possible to put on fat on zero carb, although I do think for most people it would take alot of calories.
Also, in the past 2 years you have had quite a few different styles of eating. It might help to settle into a more consistant eating style. I think that if we make drastic changes too often, the body doesn't quite know how to react sometimes. Just some thoughts......we have some very bright and experienced people around here. I'm sure we'll get you on the right track. Hang in there!!
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Jake
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I usually eat about 3-4 pounds of beef per day. The odd thing is that in the last week my weight has been increasing unusually rapidly. If I eat 4000 calories, my weight might jump up 1-1.5 pounds. In other words, weight gain has been MORE than a pound for every 3500 calories eaten.
I really have no idea how fat could be stored on zero carbs. Jeff, do other people gain (besides you) when they eat large amounts? I have had many conversations with Bear lately and he insists that if I am overfat, which I am, fat will be lost, never stored.
Confusing.
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Dean
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Hey Jake, welcome to the Bus!
I'm so glad you decided to join our community. We have all been through so much, and can give each other lots of advice.
Sounds like you are eating a BOAT LOAD of protein, consuming so much meat. That may be the problem right there. I've dropped almost 20 lbs very easily doing zero carb, carnivorous eating. I lost lots of water and quite a bit of fat. However, I was also doing IF (Intermittent Fasting), so my calories were probably below 2000 each day... or at least below 2500. My fat intake was fairly high, so my calories were still up there, but nothing like what you are doing. Perhaps if you tried a similar path, you too could lose that weight. Also, I have been exercising during this past couple months, pretty regularly and intensely. So, that plays a part as well.
Maybe if you started a journal, it would help you track what you are doing, while getting feedback from others.
Good to have you aboard, Jake! 
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jeff
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| Quote: | | The odd thing is that in the last week my weight has been increasing unusually rapidly. If I eat 4000 calories, my weight might jump up 1-1.5 pounds. In other words, weight gain has been MORE than a pound for every 3500 calories eaten. |
That is strange, Jake. I tend to not be overly concerned with short term fluctuations in weight. They sometimes seem to happen for no apparent reason. I agree with Dean. It would be good for you to start a journal. Some of us veterans might be able to give you some more meaningful feedback if we had some more details.
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Dean
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| Jake wrote: | | I started zero carbing on about 1100 cals per day in March and got my weight down to 161.5 pounds by April 19 (the first 15 pounds flew off, followed by a trickle). After eating unlimited beef and water since then, I woke up today at 188 pounds. |
| Jake wrote: | | I usually eat about 3-4 pounds of beef per day. |
Jake, I'm not sure what you weighed on March 1st, but you obviously lost about 15 lbs of water (from glycogen stores) very quickly. That's very typical. After that, you say you "trickled" down to 161.5 pounds. Could you tell us what you weighed on March 1st, and what you weighed when the "trickle" loss started? And, I guess you have not weighed yourself from April 19th until today? Why's that?  And, I assume your calories were 1100 per day from March 1st till April 19th, and they were astronomical from April 19th until today (eating 3-4 pounds of beef each day). Question. Why did you increase your calories like that? It seems you were doing fine weight wise, so why would you so drastically increase your calories? And, why would you not be curious for so long as to what this drastic increase in calories was doing to your weight? It seems like you weighed yourself a lot in the beginning, but then after greatly increasing you calories, you stopped weighing yourself... and did not weigh yourself for a month and a half. What's up with that? Or am I misunderstanding here? After hitting your goal weight, what was your reason for doing this super increase in food consumption? And, why did you not weigh yourself until you "woke up today"?
| Jake wrote: | | I was on a standard 1000 calorie per day diet from May 2005 to December 2006. |
BTW... Jake... for a 5'9" male, I would consider a 1000 calorie per day diet to be anything but "standard"! 
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Jake
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OK
June 4 2007
3 Pounds of Beef (1 pound chuck, 2 pound sirloin)
Tons of water
This is pretty usual for me
Do you guys really think I will have to restrict calories? I have no trouble no eating carbs, I DO have trouble reducing quantity.
The odd thing is that Bear keeps telling me that I should lose on zero carbs no matter what. I am willing to lose slowly, I just want to be there within, say, a year (and stay there).
Thanks Jeff and Dean
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Dean
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Jake,
Would you please re-read the post I just made before yours? Could you please answer some of those questions? I think we could figure this out more easily.
Thanks.
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Dean
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| Jake wrote: | | I have no trouble no eating carbs, I DO have trouble reducing quantity. |
You went a whole year and a half eating 1000 calories per day, thinking it was "standard". From March 1st until April 19th you did zero carb at 1100 calories per day. Now you say you need to continue eating around 4000+ calories per day!
I'm sorry Jake... I'm totally confused!
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Jake
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Sorry Dean, I should have been clearer
I was eating 1000 cals for 18 months to lose weight on a LOW FAT diet. You are talking to someone who has gained weight on a high carb 1200 cal per day diet.
I was eating very little until April 19 because I thought I would lose faster. Two problems crept up: HUNGER (you can say that twice) and concerns over health, particularly not getting enough to stay healthy. I changed in April after Bear told me I would lose eating whatever satisfied, which has worked for many (look at Jeff's experiments).
Right now I am just trying to slim down.
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Dean
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| Jake wrote: | | I was eating 1000 cals for 18 months to lose weight on a LOW FAT diet. |
A 5'9" male could lose weight on ANY diet if there was only 1000 calories a day! Even if they were just lying in bed the whole time!  I would venture to guess they could lose weight even faster if they UPPED those calories a tad. Your metabolism must have been CRAWLING!
| Jake wrote: | | You are talking to someone who has gained weight on a high carb 1200 cal per day diet. |
I say again... CRAWLING!
| Jake wrote: | | I was eating very little until April 19 because I thought I would lose faster. Two problems crept up: HUNGER (you can say that twice) and concerns over health, particularly not getting enough to stay healthy. I changed in April after Bear told me I would lose eating whatever satisfied, which has worked for many (look at Jeff's experiments). |
You went from 1100 calories a day (which might cause a lot of people to be hungry)... to 4000+ calories a day? And, you never once weighed yourself in 1.5 months? I find that VERY odd! Are you being serious with us? I mean if you were experimenting, as jeff was, it seems that you would want to keep tabs on your data a bit more than that.
| Jake wrote: | | Right now I am just trying to slim down. |
Well, my advice at this point is try to find a "happy medium"! 
I mean, there's quite a range between 1100 and 4000+, Jake! 
And, consider this, if you (or Bear) never have. Perhaps a person... especially a person like yourself, who has been eating a super low calorie, low fat diet for a long time, and obviously has metabolic issues... is NOT going to become keto/FFA adapted that quickly. So, despite what Bear, or anyone says, your body was and is NOT ready to use fat for fuel primarily. Your metabolism needs to heal, my friend!
So... I would suggest you try adding a few things into your diet, unless you REALLY just wanna eat beef for the rest of your life... AND, start watching those calories as you have become so accustomed to... and step on the scale more than once every month and a half... especially when you CHANGE something so drastically! You will figure out ways to tweak your diet, for sure.
And, of course... if you wanna kick up your metabolism... start exercising. We have all found that very helpful in ths process.
START A JOURNAL... and you will be able to record everything, and we will all be able to help you so much more.
And tell Bear to come visit us sometime! We miss the old fart!
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Jake
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Dean
About the scale thing. I was weighing myself at least several times a week.
I guess the point is that I need to do a little tweaking.
I may have a few ideas. 
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Dean
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Jake,
Sorry. I thought you were surprised about the weight gain. But, I guess you just kept seeing it go up and up. Why did you keep eating so much meat? Did you think you would eventually start losing weight?
Most people experience a great deal of satiation on zero carb. BUT, it's because they keep their FAT ratio high. I'm thinking that perhaps you were NOT eating enough FAT, and therefore you were HUNGRY. Were you eating lots of FAT with your meat? If not, that explains EVERYTHING. 
How stupid of me to overlook this! 
Yah... I was eating just meat and water for a couple weeks, first part of April, and I was eating lots of pork, cuz of all the fat. I was eating about 90% fat, cuz I wanted that satiation. I got it too, believe me. I was able to do IF through the whole thing. I ended up eating very seldom, and my overall calories were low. I am still always very careful to keep my fat ratio high. I'm a BIG believer in animal fat!
I hope you say you were NOT eating enough FAT. Cuz, that will have your problem solved.
Sorry I overlooked that, Jake.
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Jake
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Dean
When one is on a zero carb diet, how much protein do they need? I know protein requirements go up because it is used to produce the 130 grams of glucose needed daily. Eades says that 1 gram of protein produces 0.7 grams of glucose via gluconeogenesis. This means that 185 grams of protein is needed just for glucose alone. Does one really have to eat that much (but how does one get by without it). This has confused me greatly.
Fat intake is around 75% most days.
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Dean
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Jake,
I think 130 grams may be a bit much, especially once you are keto/FFA adapted. I don't think you will need that much glucose via gluconeogenesis. While fatty acid can be used for glucose production, sadly, I fear our own muscle may be broken down for this need. So, I often wonder if I am not eating enough protein. But, I think you were doing too much of everything, and perhaps that is why you gained. If you say you were at 75% fat, that is really odd that you had so much hunger. It could be that you are gonna take a long time to get adapted to this WOE.
One thing that may help is to ease into it. This cold turkey approach may not be the best. It may be easier for you to eat more carbs for awhile. I would highly suggest looking into the Optimal Diet, Life Without Bread, or something similar. I was eating "paleo" for several years before going more carnivore. I don't know what it's like for people who are going from low fat diets to zero carb. Must be pretty rough, though. Your enzymes are gonna FREAK! Cuz, almost all of them have to be switched out! Those ribosomes inside your cells are probably screaming "CLUSTER FUCK!"
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Jake
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I posted the protein question on Dr. Eades blog. I don't know why but he has been slow to respond lately. He should answer in the next day or so.
For now I am going to eat enough protein but cut down on fat especially and protein some.
Interestingly when I was (previously) eating a lot of lean meat my weight did not move much (if at all). I also have some fattier pork that I thawed out.
Trust me I don't want to add carbs back Dean. On a carnivorous diet I only eat what I like, its simpler, and I feel better.
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Dean
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That's great that you wanna stay on a carnivorous diet. I too find it easier, and more enjoyable... and I feel best on it.
I always have to remind myself that no matter how much glucose our bodies need, our bodies will produce it. Our ancestors had no intake of glucose, so it is such a natural thing for our bodies to produce their own glucose needs. You know it wouldn't surprise me to find that our bodies are going through gluconeogenesis on a regular basis, EVEN IF our carb consumption is way up. It may be that our bodies look at incoming glucose as just another waste product to deal with, like alcohol. So, it burns the stuff up as quick as it can, and what it cannot burn up, it stores as glycogen or fat. I know I am probably reaching here... but, it is just an idea. Bottom line is, I just cannot see a need for dietary glucose, when we did not evolve doing it that way. We spent a few million years producing our own glucose, and really had no dietary source.
BTW, Jake... I sure hope you start a Journal. You have such a great story, and could help SO many people who have similar stories. And, your future progress is gonna be very interesting to watch. I sure hope you do start one.
Thanks for being here!
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Jake
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I have been thinking about doing some weight lifting to add muscle and maybe bring my body fat level down some. I want whatever plan I use to slim down to also be the one I can sustain for the rest of my life.
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Dean
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Jake,
Weight lifting to add muscle is gonna be a great way to slim down on your body fat. So is HIIT cardio. Sustaining on one plan of action for the rest of your life may not be very practical. Your needs will surely change as you go along.
Right now, I'm at the point where I am going to focus on using my treadmill, the parks, and some other types of cardio things I can do at home, like dance, calisthenics, etc. And, I am going to use dumbbells and a good incline/decline bench to do all sorts of weight exercises. Plus, at the park and at home (on my VKR station) I plan to do dips, chins, pull-ups, push-ups, VKR type exercises, and all sorts of sit-ups and crunches for abs, etc. I can do things on my bench as well. I will be doing body weight resistance, as well as dumbbell weight resistance exercises.
All this should work wonders for me, but who knows what I'll need 5 years from now. I am just going to go with the flow and let things evolve based on practice... not just theory. If you have no weights at this time, and you don't wanna go to a gym, I'd highly recommend dumbbells to start out with. They are cheaper and take up less space than barbells and plates. You can also get a superior workout, and do so many more types of exercises, IMO. Plus, they are much safer, especially if you work out alone. And, you are less prone to injury, cuz of more freedom of natural movement. Check out the PowerBlocks or something similar. You will really save space and hassle then. I would get dumbbells first, then a good bench, then whatever else, like a dip station, etc.
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jeff
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| Quote: | | I don't know what it's like for people who are going from low fat diets to zero carb. Must be pretty rough, though. Your enzymes are gonna FREAK! Cuz, almost all of them have to be switched out! Those ribosomes inside your cells are probably screaming "CLUSTER FUCK!" |
I have to agree with Dean here. I think that since you were doing low fat and very low calorie it is going to take your body a while to get used to the idea of burning only fat. All this fat, protein and extra calories has thrown your metabolism for a loop. Patience.
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Jake
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If my metabolism does need to adapt, I wonder how long it will take? Still not losing though. 
The only thing I have been doing differently lately is eating more lamb. It is hard to find beef with much fat on it. Thankfully, lamb almost always is well marbled.
I did go to the gym Wednesday and will go tomorrow too.
Hopefully things will change. This is depressing though
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Dean
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Jake,
Don't get discouraged.
Are you drinking tons of water?
Are you sleeping at least 8 hours a night?
Are you at least out walking every day?
Are you keeping your calories in check?
Are you doing at least 65% fat, and keeping your carbs below 5%? (carbs could actually be higher if you wanted)
Have you checked your thyroid by taking your temp first thing in the morning?
I think you are doing most of these, but just start using FitDay to see what you are doing for sure. Then, post all that here. This can be figured out, I'm sure.
Whatever you do, just don't give up.
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Dean
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Jake,
I will be joining you in doing just meat and water, here real soon. Once I'm out of coffee, cream, cheese, eggs (in less than a week, more than likely), I'm gonna venture back to my April Challenge days and do strict meat and water, just to see what these horrible sinus issues are all about. I wonder if they could just be pollen related, and have nothing to do with food. But, I know that, at least it seemed like, my sinuses were better when I was eating no dairy. But, this time I HAVE to find out what is what! So, I'll be joining you soon!
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Jake
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Does anyone know of anything that could be delaying my progress on zero carb? I have been less than 10g carbs per day since March 1 and Og per day since April 19. I'm hoping my recent focus on fat will change something. I have heard of people losing after they upped they ate more fat.
At least Dean will be joinging me soon . Then I will have someone to gain weight with and wonder what the hell is going on.
Zero carb will COMPLETELY eliminate any cravings for non-meat you have. I'm at the point of not wanting anything but red meat and water. Even fish or chicken doesn't seem very appetizing, carbs of any kind surely don't.
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Dean
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Hey, Jake,
The only thing I can think of is your calories are too high. I know some people are not affected by that. But, those people aren't affected by all sorts of things... like java, booze, dairy, etc. Has something to do with living in Wisconsin, I believe!
I know what you mean about not craving anything but animal food. Plus, no appetite... for me, anyway. I have to remind myself to eat, and then force myself to eat enough.
Very true what you say about red meat, though. I instinctively gravitate toward it always.
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Jake
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I'm in the library as I write this reading Paleo-books. Without a doubt paleo-people were carnivores. Their diet was almost exclusively red meat and water, just as Dean and I are eating. Somehow I just don't see caveman Bob eating half of a buffalo and saying "you know guys, this is delicious, but I've hit my daily caloric quota according to Fitday, better put it down". I also don't see him being fat either. There has got to be more to this somewhere.
Hey Dean, have you noticed a change in exercise endurance on zero carb. I think mine might be higher.
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Jaime
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| Dean wrote: |
But, I know that, at least it seemed like, my sinuses were better when I was eating no dairy. |
Dairy is the WORST thing in the world for sinuses. I keep saying this but you never listen!
When my boys were small and they had asthma problems the good folks at the hospital told me NO DAIRY!! Even know if they drink milk or eat cheese, ice cream, etc they get stuffed up sinuses and chest congestion.
Same thing happens to me combined with yeast issues so I avoid all dairy like the PLAGUE that it is.
Jake: Sorry for the interruption to your journal but welcome to the group.
You and Dean won't be the only one zero carbing. I will be doing that myself just as soon as I devour 2 artichokes I have sitting in the fridge.
I'm cooking them up for breakfast this morning and then it is zero carb for me after this. I have some yeast problems I need to clear up and strict zero carb will do that. Very low carbing has not helped get rid of it once and for all.
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jeff
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| Quote: | | Hey Dean, have you noticed a change in exercise endurance on zero carb. I think mine might be higher. |
Jake, low carb or zero carb is great for endurance! I have experienced this myself. If you are experiencing this, that tells me that your body is switching, or has switched, to being very good at using fat for fuel.
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Jake
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| jeff wrote: | | Quote: | | Hey Dean, have you noticed a change in exercise endurance on zero carb. I think mine might be higher. |
Jake, low carb or zero carb is great for endurance! I have experienced this myself. If you are experiencing this, that tells me that your body is switching, or has switched, to being very good at using fat for fuel. |
Yeah, I think I notice the difference in weightlifting.
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Dean
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| Jaime wrote: | | Dairy is the WORST thing in the world for sinuses. I keep saying this but you never listen! |
I do, but then jeff reminds me of how much his local economy is going to collapse without dairy purchases.... OK... I just like some cheese and butter and cream.... I'll try this AGAIN! I'll stay off the dairy and then add it back in (my {and jeff's} favorite part) and see what happens.
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Jake
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Does anyone think my weight gain could actually be muscle? I think I have gained 27 pounds now, but then again I was on a low-fat low-calorie diet for years. Just trying to make sense of this all.
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Dean
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Jake, you mentioned losing a whole bunch of weight in the beginning...
| Jake wrote: | | I started zero carbing on about 1100 cals per day in March and got my weight down to 161.5 pounds by April 19 |
So, it seems that excess calories are your only problem. Have you tried reducing your calories to see what happens?
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Jake
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I actually have been eating less lately. I have been exercising too. Previously I was starving and probably would have lost weight no matter what I ate. I was hoping to not be hungry and lose on zero carb. If all I have to do is reduce calories drastically though, why consider zero carb effective for weight loss? Right now I am hoping to find something sustainable. I don't know if 2000 calories is though.
Has anyone else had luck keeping fat really high and protein low?
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Dean
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| Jake wrote: | | If all I have to do is reduce calories drastically though, why consider zero carb effective for weight loss? |
If the only reason you are doing zero carb is for weight loss, and you are more hungry on this WOE than eating a bunch of carbs, then perhaps you should go back to consuming carbs. HOWEVER. IMO, consuming a bunch of carbs is NOT healthy! And, ultimately, THAT is the reason to adopt any WOE... for the HEALTH. The weight loss is just ONE small part of the health that you need to achieve on your WOE. There are SO MANY other factors to consider when considering proper nutrition.
Once you get your body composition where you want, what is your diet going to look like then? If you haven't considered that, then IMO, you are doing this completely backwards. A WOE for HEALTH must be considered BEFORE you adopt it to get your proper body composition. One can get their weight in check by eating nothing but blueberries (or even McDonald's french fries, for that matter!). I'd sure hate to see how ungodly unhealthy this individual would be, though. But, I'm sure there is some fruitarian somewhere who's tried it!
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Jake
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Did I mention I had bloodwork done?
My TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) was 1.14, which is perfectly normal.
Also, potassium and sodium were normal too. Meaning that eating only meat DOES provide the body with plenty of sodium.
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Dean
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So, are you not eating any added salt?
BTW... I had my blood work done... all sorts of tests... last Fall, and everything was perfect. Only the cholesterol was too high at that testing. But, I don't take that seriously. But, the fact that all my other blood indicators were right on, I am sure this is a very healthy diet. And, if you trust the evolutionary evidence, why the hell wouldn't it be?!
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Jake
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Nope, don't add salt.
For the last several days I have been doing a high fat experiment. I have been consuming:
88-90% calories from fat
10-12% calories from protein
I am hoping this will produce some kind of change.
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Dean
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Jake, what are your total calories looking like? Fat has so many calories that it may put you in a stall. BTDT. Of course, exercise changes everything when it comes to calories/metabolism.
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Jake
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| Dean wrote: | | Jake, what are your total calories looking like? Fat has so many calories that it may put you in a stall. BTDT. Of course, exercise changes everything when it comes to calories/metabolism. |
About 3000 ish. My scale was 0.5-1 lower this morning when I checked. This has led me to continue my experiment for a little longer. If I see another slight reduction tomorrow that will really say something.
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Dean
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Jake,
Daily fluctuations are gonna be too erratic. Pick a day of the week for weigh-in day, and start checking your weight then. 3000 calories sounds like more than you should be doing for weight loss... unless you are really working out a lot.
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Jake
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I mentioned that I have been eating a lot of fat lately. Lots of butter, heavy cream, and fatty meats. I am happy to say that I am finally seeing the scales go in the opposite direction lately. Hopefully this will keep up.
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jeff
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Hey, that's awesome news, Jake. Keep it up. 
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Dean
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Jake,
If you are seeing weight loss on lots of fat, that's super! 
Do yourself and all of us a big favor, and try to record this in FitDay, and then post here in your journal. I for one would love to see if, while eating 90% fat, and close to zero carb, one can boost their calories way up, and still lose weight. Since you will probably do this a lot longer than the one week jeff did, that could be a real substantiation to what he found.
I'm glad things are turning around for you, Jake!
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Jake
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I usualy eat 85-90% fat and 10-15% protein. Carbs are usually several grams per day. Yesterday I ate:
2 sticks of butter
1/2 pint of heavy cream
slightly over 1/2 pound of ribeye
1 spoonful of crab meat
This works out to about 3000 calories exactly.
310 grams of fat
70 grams of protein
7 grams of carb
Barry Groves told me that if I keep protein intake at only what is needed, my body will adapt toward fat use and not try to convert protein to glucose. I guess I will try it out. By the way, eating butter really sucks. I see this as a temporary measure until I can get fat trimmings from my butcher as a replacement.
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Dean
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Jake,
There will still be some need for gluconeogenesis (your liver creating glucose out of protein) for the cells that MUST have glucose. But, eventually, the amount of glucose needed will be far less than it is now, because of the fat adaptation Barry spoke of. Although, I have heard that it can take up to two years to get completely FFA adapted. I'm guessing the more you stay away from dietary glucose, the quicker you will adapt to more and more use of fat.
Thanks for posting your calories. This will be another great experiment to see if one can actually lose weight eating excess calories (of primarily fat).
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