| Archive for The Magic Bus Trip Never get off the Bus! |
| jeff |
jeff's 7 Day High Fat, High Protein, High Calorie ExperimentToday is day 1 of my new experiment. My plan is to eat about 4000 calories per day, with unrestricted fat and unrestricted protein. Very similar to the last one, exept this one will have much more protein, and probably less fat, but about the same amount of calories. I want to see if changing up the macronutrient ratios will change the results. My beginning weight is 164. |
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| jeff |
Food for Day 1
3 eggs fried in butter 3 slices co-jack cheese .25 cup heavy cream 5 Tbs butter 20 oz boneless beef shortribs, nearly raw 13 oz ribeye steak, nearly raw 16 oz dry red wine 4325 calories 310g fat 11g carbs 281g protein 44 g alcohol This works out to : 65% fat 26% protein 7% alcohol 1% carb |
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| jeff |
Chugging right along on day 2. I took one of my beef tenderloins out of the freezer. It's about 3.5 pounds, so I divided it into 3 equal portions of about 20 oz each. I'm having one for lunch. It's delicious, but the only problem is tenderloin is quite lean, so the calories are less than if I were eating a fattier cut of meat. I'll have to supplement with some fat today to get my calories up around 4000. | ||||
| jeff |
Well, it's after midnight, so I'll post day 2.
3 eggs fried in butter 3 slices co-jack cheese 5 Tbs heavy cream 20 oz beef tenderloin, nearly raw 5 Tbs butter 12 oz ribeye steak, rare (restaurant) 5 large shrimp 1 cup lettuce salad .25 cup bleu cheese dressing 10 oz dry red wine 12 oz lite beer 4150 calories 298g fat 18g carb 274g protein 39g alcohol |
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| jeff |
Day 3
20 oz beef tenderloin 5 Tbs heavy cream 3 slices co-jack cheese 25 ounces nearly raw pork ribs 3 Tbs butter 15 oz dry red wine 4113 calories 279g fat 9g carb 304g protein 41g alcohol |
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| Dean |
I'm SERIOUSLY jealous of all the dairy you get to eat! 
Today, when I was fixing my 12oz fatty burger, I kept imagining putting a thick slice of cheese on the top... and watching it melt! Then I had to eat this burger totally NAKED! It was SO bland! 
I see cheese dripping from burgers on May Day! 
Red! I need some support! HELP! 
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| jeff |
And to think.....you used to badmouth my beloved cheese. It's like what's-her-name sang......"You don't know what you've got till it's gone."
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| Dean |
Joni Mitchell probably loves cheese! 
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| jeff |
Yeah, her. And I'm sure she does. 
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| Red |
Hang in there, bud. The meat won't always taste bland. I don't find it bland at all. I find having a nice seared crust on the outside of the meat really helps to build those free glutamates which add tonnes of flavour. Get that pan really hot! As hot as you can. It makes a big difference. Chances are that if you start eating cheese after this challenge, you'll gain weight. Probably not loads, but you will gain after having no dairy and no salt for so long. If you want to include cheese, just expect a rise in weight, which will probably level off. |
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| Dean |
Thanks for the support, Red!
It's just that "hunger" talking. If I start thinking about certain food, it can become troubling. But, I have the discipline to keep going on these fasts and on this Challenge. I am actually training my body to go without food, so that I can go on a 72 hour water fast (at least once) during April. I figure this is the best time to do this. I've never done it before, and I think it will be great to cleanse!
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| jeff |
So I'm guessing the 5,000 calories per day thingy is out the window?
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| Dean |
Yah... you can overload your body with calories to prove that fat does NOT make one fat!
I am seriously losing the slight roll around my middle. I can still pinch it, which sucks... but, it's shrinking!
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| jeff |
......or protein. Which remains to be seen. |
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| jeff |
Ok, onward to Day 4
6 Tbs heavy cream 20 oz beef tenderloin, ever so close to being raw 4 Tbs butter 22 oz beef shortribs, rare as can be 3 slices provelone cheese (somewhat melted on the shortribs. Yum) 15 oz dry red wine 4052 calories 295g fat 10g carb 256g protein 41g alcohol I think that's all for today. There's an outside chance I may have a little more wine. I'll edit if need be. |
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| Dean |
It's a good thing that "kitchen clean" ZC KA doesn't factor into these calories! 
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| jeff |
Well, I'm sure it was sugar free Kool-Aid.
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| jeff |
Day 5
2 eggs fried in butter 2 raw egg yolks .5 cup heavy cream 1 slice provelone cheese .25 cup bleu cheese dressing 5 ounces mystery fish, possibly cod, baked 32 oz. beef rump roast, yes, all at once. Slightly cooked, buy very rare. 15 ounces dry red wine 4344 calories 296g fat 17g carb 316g protein 41g alcohol 2 days to go. I don't feel like I'm gaining any weight, but we will see on sunday. |
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| Red |
I can't believe you don't have the urge to look at the scale during the week! I'd be on there all the time! | ||||
| jeff |
I know what you mean, but I've never been a big fan of getting on the scale anyway. Weight can fluctuate from day to day for any number of reasons. That can be frustrating and lead to false impressions. I really believe weighing just once a week gives a better idea of long term trends. |
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| Gazelle |
Hey, I'm just catching up on this latest experiment. Can't wait to see the results! | ||||
| jeff |
Yep, only 2 more days!!! Are there any requests for any future experiments? I AM JEFF, THE HUMAN GUINEA PIG!!! |
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| Dean |
I know what you mean. A long time ago, I used to do daily weigh-ins, and they fluctuated so much, it was meaningless. Since then I've always done just weekly weigh-ins. The trend is much easier to see. Actually, for these experiments, you probably should be going like 4 weeks, instead of just one. One week cannot really tell you that much. It can still tell you something, but not near as much as a month would. |
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| Dean |
Here's one. Go 30 days eating nothing but cakes, donuts, and pies. Any flavor, any toppings, any fillings... but, just keep it to these three food groups. Eat at least 5000 calories per day, and drink at least a liter of wine (any type). Oh, and no cheating with exercise! You have to watch TV in a recliner for your only activity. See how many pounds of fat you can put on in just one month. 
Was this something you had in mind? 
I'm still trying to get you into that hospital, so I can get to Florida first! 
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| jeff |
I do realize that longer would be better for these experiments. I just thought it would be hard to be completely faithful to a particular eating regimen for that long. And I figure the results would be rather meaningless if I really didn't stick to the protocol faithfully. But, I figured I can do anything for one week. Also, the relatively short duration is the reason I went waaaayyyyy overboard with the calories. If I ate say, only an extra 500 calories per day, that would amount to one pound worth of calories in a week. That may or may not show up on the scale. I figure by eating almost 9000 extra calories, something would show on the scale if endeed any fat was being strored. |
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| Dean |
What about glycogen stores? Do you think on a higher protein diet, there might be some glucose that would be created to fill glycogen stores? I'm not sure about these stores, and what causes them to be low or high, except the demand for the fuel. In other words, when you become more keto/FFA adapted, your muscles will be using more fat for fuel, and therefore, your need for glycogen would go down. 
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| jeff |
I knew somebody would suggest something like that. As interesting as that may be, I will have to say no to that one. How about the ESC experiment? Nothing but ESC for 30 days. Hmmmm......I'll need a willing partner.
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| Dean |
Yah, and Suzanne is AWOL... so that could be a problem.
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| jeff |
I believe Dr. Mike said that excess protein would not be converted to glucose, and consequently glycogen. I think he said the body would only produce what was needed for those cells that must have glucose. |
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| jeff |
Yeah, I'm sure that's an experiment she'd be willing to participate in. 
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| Dean |
It probably IS an experiment she's participating in as we speak! That's probably why she's AWOL!
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| jeff |
That would not surprise me.
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| jeff |
Day 6
3 eggs fried in butter 2 slices provelone cheese 3 Tbs butter 1/3 cup heavy cream 32 oz beef rump roast, very rare 16 oz ribeye, completely raw, not even seared.
16 oz dry red wine (I'm on a roll this week) 
4357 Calories 319g fat 12g carb 276 protein 44g alcohol |
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| jeff |
Day 7 (Has it been a week already?)
3 eggs fried in butter 2 slices provelone cheese 1 cup heavy cream 16 oz duck (estimated) 16 oz beef tenderloin 2 raw egg yolks 14 oz dry red wine (still on a roll)
3630 calories 261g fat 16g carb 227 protein 38g alcohol That's it, folks. I'll have totals and my weight in the morning. |
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| jeff |
Well, the results are in. I didn't plan on reporting this at 7 AM, but I couldn't sit on this all day.
Weight 162 I lost 2 pounds!!! I averaged 4138 calories per day. That's an extra 1300 calories per day An extra 9300 calories for the week I "should" have gained a llittle over 2.5 pounds. The average breakdown of macronutrients looks something like this. 65% fat 26% protein 8% alchohol 1% carb It's interesting to note that I consumed alcohol every day, about 2 glasses of dry red wine on average. Ok, does somebody with more technical knowledge than me want to take a stab at explaining all of this? |
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| Red |
In this case, I actually don't believe that the weight loss is diet related. You did start guerilla cardio this week, too. I think that just must be much more efficient in burning fat and your weight would have maintained, otherwise. | ||||
| jeff |
I won't rule that out, but only did it twice. If that is the case, then this guerilla cardio is an incredible fat burner. I do have some other ideas. I'll post more a little later. |
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| Dean |
jeff,
I think this might be more conclusive if you do it for 30 days. And, why not just do 5000 calories on average. Keep your exercise fairly light for that month. All in the name of science. If you still lose weight or even remain the same, now THAT would make some headlines!
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| jeff |
Because that is one hell of a lot of food!!! That's why. Seriously, even getting to the number of calories I was at this past week was difficult at times. I did an awful lot of eating when I did not feel like it, just to get my calories up around 4000 for the day. That's about 50% more than I usually eat.
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| Gazelle |
This diet is awesome. Unlimited fat and protein AND red wine every day?!? Sign me up! 
Seriously, you've inspired me again. After the carb binge fest/Easter party I just had, I need to jump back on the bus and keep carbs <20/day. |
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| jeff |
But you have to do guerilla cardio twice per week.
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| jeff |
I've had all day to think about this, and I've come up with some ideas. For the sake of discussion, let's assume the diet caused the weight loss. We don't know that for sure, but it's as likely as anything else.
We know that in the relative absense of carbs, and with low insulin levels, fat cannot be stored. But that does not explain a 2 pound weight loss. We learned from Dr. Mike what happens to excess dietary fat. Lots of ions passing through cell membranes, futile cycles, all kinds of wonderful energy wasting activities. This goes on until the excess fat is gone. But what about the excess protein? Dr. Mike says the body will convert to glucose only the amount needed by those cells that must have glucose. So what happens to the rest of the excess protein? I would think under "normal" (high carb) conditions, it would be converted to fat, and then stored as fat. But in a VLC situation, it can't be stored. My thinking is that the excess protein does indeed get converted to fat, but then from that point on goes through the same process as dietary fat, with all the shuffling around of ions and futile cycles and such. But, that still doesn't explain the 2 pound weight loss, does it? Finally, we get to the good part! I'm thinking that the processing of all this excess fat and protein.......the ions passing back and forth through cells, the increased futile cycles, and whatever else is involved, requires a lot of energy. In fact, it requires more energy than the food itself provides. Negative calories, if you will.
Ok, Dean, Billi-Jean, and anybody else, feel free to start tearinig that apart. Shawn, more Kool-Aid please!!! 
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| Dean |
It's possible, I suppose. But, what I want to know, is what did you lose? Muscle, fat, or both? Or, perhaps your bladder was full of coffee the first time you weighed.
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| jeff |
Well, I was eating one hell of a lot of protein....in excess of 250g most days, I believe, so I don't see how I would be losing muscle. Unless somebody could explain how that could be possible. | ||||
| Dean |
Well, then was it fat? And, if so, does that mean one can lose body fat, while over consuming dietary fat (on a zero carb diet)? That would be a wonderful thing! Perhaps I could experiment on that... once I go to Level 2 and start eating butter!
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| jeff |
I"m pretty certain it was fat, though I can't prove it. Looking in the mirror, I do seem a tad bit leaner. It just may be that processing all that excess fat and protein take so much energy that you loose weight. If that is true, then in theory, the more you eat, the more you should lose, as long as carbs are kept very low. I have read many posts from people on "other boards" that they have broken a stall by increasing calories. Maybe this is what's going on. | ||||
| jeff |
Great idea!! You're almost there already. You just need to eat a little more. About 4 punds of meat should do it......or 3 pounds and a stick of butter.
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| Dean |
It could very well be. What you have been describing is the speeding up of metabolism. I think, along with exercise, one could speed up their metabolism by upping calories (protein and fat calories). I may do this later in the month, but right now want to make sure that I am completely switching over to fat burning metabolism. I would love to add coconut oil, since that really gets your metabolism going. I'd have to go to Level 3 for that, but will at some point. I just know this WOE I'm doing now is gonna get really boring in a while.
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| jeff |
Yes, what you are doing is far more restrictive than what even Bear does. |
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| Red |
I have a question for you. Do you find your appetite is bigger after these challenges or are you right back to eating the same amount as before? What are your calories and macronutrients looking like now that the challenge is over? Did you stretch your stomach?
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| jeff |
That is a good question red. This is only the first day back, but so far everything seems pretty much normal. Breakfast was 3 fried eggs with 2 slices of cheese and coffee, black. I sometimes take cream, but I can take it or leave it. Lunch was a T-Bone steak. I guess about 14 oz. not including the bone. For dinner I'll have ribeye steak, about a pound. That is my normal serving size for beef. That will come to: 2455 calories 183g fat 68% 3g carb 1% 192 protein 32% I know, that's 101%, but that's what fitday says. If I have a glass or 2 of wine, which I haven't decided yet, you can add maybe a couple of hundred more calories. This is very representative of how I normally eat. The foods may change somewhat of course, but the calories and macronutrients are usually right about there. Appetite seems the same as before the challenge. Stomach stretched? Not that I can tell.
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| Dan |
Not to take the wind out of your sails, Jeff, but it could just be water fluctuations. I don't suppose you took waist measurements/caliper readings or anything?
On the other hand, there's this study where they had to feed subjects on a low carb diet almost 7000 calories of corn oil before they started to put on weight: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/2/197 I'd be interested to see you keep up this gorging for a month and see what happens. ;) |
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| jeff |
No, no calipers. I did take waist measurements, which were unchanged, but I doubt I could measure accurately enough to detect the small change that might come from a 2 pound loss. Water loss, possibly. But 2 pounds of water would be alot for somebody with already depleted glycogen stores. Unless you know of another cause of that much water loss. I'm not convinced the way I ate produced the weight loss. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. And like you said, maybe it wasn't even fat. My real objective was to see if fat would be stored when excess calories came from both fat and protein. Being 2 pounds lighter, I think we can safely say that no fat was stored. Dan, you're not the first to suggest I do that for a month. I really have no interest in doing that at this time. It's harder than it might sound. It involves an awful lot of eating when you are not the least bit hungry. 7000 calories of corn oil? I'd puke. No wonder they didn't gain weight. I had a hard enough time choking down a half stick of butter on my last experiement. Thanks for your input.
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| Red |
Well, both alcohol and coffee are dehydrating. But then you always drink both of those beverages, so there's no reason to suddenly dehydrate, unless you drank a lot more than usual the day before your final weigh in. It's true, though - it's safe to say you did not put on any weight even at a ridiculously high level of calories and protein. | ||||
| Gazelle |
I did an "experiment" last week where I ate high carb, at or around maintenance levels. Then on Easter Sunday I probably ate several thousand extra high-carb calories (coconut chocolate cake, anyone?).
Keep in mind that my metabolism is supressed due to hypothyroid, but in that one week I gained at least 5lbs! |
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| kateryna |
Jeff, this is facinating reading. First, Dr. Bernstein in his "Diabetes Diet" book states that if you are following his diet, have weight to lose and can't, decrease the amount of protein in increments until you start losing. Since he recommends eating a high proportion of fat, he still doesn't recommend reducing fat content, only protein content. This is interesting to those of us who are diabetic or are very insulin resistant like I am. I have difficulty losing on any plan, cheating or not. Maybe I should start experimenting like you Jeff.
Are you continuing with this? Any suggestions for those of us who are extremely insulin resistant? I just can't force down wine or any alcoholic beverage. Maybe that's my problem? |
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| jeff |
Yes, they are, but I did not change my consumption of either of these during the week. I normally drink a lot of coffee, and I also drink a glass or two of wine most days. |
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| Dan |
Dr. Kwasniewski also advocates limiting protein in his Optimal Diet. I think his recommended numbers are kind of low though. Plus...its pretty damn hard to gorge on just protein. |
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| Ryan |
Maybe your kidneys exploded from all that protein. At least, that's what the the anti-low carbers think happens. 
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| Dan |
Perhaps there's an upper limit to how much fat the body can even process in a day. Maybe the difference is excreted. Dunno. | ||||
| Dean |
There is definitely a limit to how much fat will get into us (through the GI tract, which is "outside" of us)... that is controlled by the amount of bile. Once it has passed through the intestinal wall, and is inside the body, the fat has to be used somehow. Dr. Mike explained what happened to the excess on his site, very well. There is a thread about it, here:
http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about611.html |
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