Moon's Meaty Musings

Moon · Moon's Meaty Musings

So, the start of my journal here. Still trying to get the hang of the VLC/ZC thing and figure out what balance works best for me. The few times I've tried to go completely ZC in the past few weeks I ended up binging on protein, feeling awful - dehydrated & constipated - and gaining weight (which I'm still trying to get rid of).

This week I'm experimenting with SUPER high fat, limited carbs and limited protein, along the lines of the Optimal/Polish diet, but not as high carb - aiming for <30/day, and so far hitting in the <20 range. Trying to keep protein <120, optimally <100, which is a bit difficult to do if eating meat only (guess that's why the carbs are factored in for the Polish plan).

The reason for all of this experimentation, aside from the desire to drop the 10ish lbs I've gained in the past couple of months, is that I have an incredible appetite, much more than I think I ought to have for a girl my size, and so far haven't hit a macro balance that makes me feel fully sated. I'm completely jealous of all the folks who feel great eating once a day, or who say that they feel stuffed on 1200 or 1700 calories or whatever. I'm over 2000 a day and still feeling that gnawing hungry feeling for a large part of the day. I can put away a 16oz steak and still not feel totally satisfied. Not sure I'll ever get to 'normal', though- I've read enough studies by now that point to leptin deficiency in folks that have lost 10+% of their weight, which I'm DEFINITELY in the category of, so I'm afraid that I might be stuck feeling hungry for, like....I don't know. Forever? lol/sigh

But in the meantime, experiments!

I've been fairly convinced of my lactose intolerance for several years now and have dutifully avoided milk, but have been dabbling in cheese every now and again the past few months. With my recently more-restricted eating of meats and fats, I'm finding it easier to narrow down my body's reactions to different foods. A few days ago I had a piece of cheese for a snack and felt wretched later in the evening, so I think my intolerance is worse than I thought. Not sure if yogurt will affect me the same way...I aim to try that out in the future at some point (love the thick Greek stuff), but not this week. This week is all about saturated fats - coconut meat, coconut oil and BUTTER. Eggs with butter, butter slathered all over pork ribs, coconut oil mixed with a bit of peanut butter, and just a bit of 100% unsweetened chocolate (has carbs, but is so dreamy and delicious...) to mix things up...ah, it's ridiculous, I tell ya what. Don't know if the (negligible) amount of lactose or casein in the butter might be affecting me? Guess time will tell.

I'm down ~2lbs today after starting the limited protein + mega fat diet 2 days ago. Hope it stays gone, as my weight is apt to bounce around quite considerably and I rarely trust a single day's weigh-in. I've also upped my exercise compared to previous weeks, since I'm starting back in on my marathon training, so I'm sure that's contributed a little bit to the loss.

jeff

Thanks for the update, Moon. This forum is all about experimentation.

Kristelle

Best of luck. I definetly do much better on higher fat, lower protein and no carbs. Had the same problems as you when I ate too much protein. But, I'm happy to say that these are mostly all gone and I've even shed a few pounds. Happy

Heather L

I wish you the best with your experimenting. It really takes work, but it shows us what works for us.

Thanks for sharing.

Moon

I think it's probably safe to say no more nut butter for me. Nuts appear to be a trigger food that lead to bingeing - I suspect I may in fact have an allergy to them that leads me to overindulge like whoa. 3/4 of a jar of almond butter yesterday plus a handful or two of macadamia nuts ON TOP of ridiculous amounts of meat, coconut oil, coconut milk and butter (2 sticks over the course of the day Shock

), and I probably could have eaten more if I hadn't finally put a stop to it and gone to bed. Pretty much undid any/all of the progress I made weightloss/bodyfat wise during the past week, but at least it wasn't like faceplanting into a chocolate cake or something.

My hunger is still at frightening levels of duration and intensity, and I can't figure out why I can consume so damn many calories and not feel full, esp when they're restricted to protein & fat and practically no carbs (tho' perhaps it's the 'practically' that gets me in trouble?). Today's carbs were limited to some kim chee, 2 bites of a peach and 1 square unsweetened bitter chocolate, mayonnaise (canola-based, honey as the sweetener) and a bit of cocoa powder and cinnamon mixed into Red's "Hot Milk" recipe (delish). No telling how many calories I took in over the course the day, though. But I guess I shouldn't concern myself with that at this juncture.

No dairy today - I'm going to try this week omitting butter and using coconut oil as my source of added fat. I'm going to try to go full ZC too, meat and eggs only, just to see how it works out. The last time I ZC'd I suspect my fat/protein ratio wasn't high enough, which lead to the meat bingeing and dehydration issues, but if I use the added CO this time, hopefully that will help.

Felt exhausted all day - probably fallout from the nut binge - so I didn't make the 12 mile run I'd scheduled for my training. Hoping to get that in tomorrow after work. I'm still not feeling quite as much exercise mojo as I used to when eating a lot more plant-based Paleo, but I'm hoping I'll become more ketone-adapted soon...

Moon

The two biggest problems I'm encountering with trying to adopt this WOE are 1) limiting protein

and

2) how much I miss vegetables.

Well, and 3) how difficult it is sometimes to believe that this is the healthiest way to live, when reading articles and "common sense" approaches to the contrary.

Sugar is not a problem for me. Grains are not a problem for me. I gave up all the starchy stuff a long time ago and haven't wanted to go back since. The whole carb cravings thing isn't something that I'm wrestling with (except for vegetables, as prev. mentioned), which is why this is all so frustrating - when you try to do everything "right" and still manage to get messed up results or feel completely lousy.

I'm so, so tired of looking for a way to eat that will give me energy and not leave me feeling hungry and won't make me gain weight. I just want to feel normal again... I'm at 3000+ cal for the day already (I don't know how to get my fat ratios up AND limit calories AND feel not starving on the smaller amount of food all at the same time. So it appears I go hypercaloric. How do you all manage it?) and there's still dinner to contend with, which, since I shouldn't have anymore protein...ah, who knows.

Not in the best of moods, alas....

Kristelle

Find the fattiest meats possible and supplement with fat. Eliminate eggs. Stick to meat only and water. Nothing else! Not even salt.

Here is what I do...

eat slices of fresh pork belly first which is mostly fat, I even cut off some of the meat. When I can't eat anymore pork belly, I start eating regular ground beef which is 25g fat, 17g protein per 100g. That works great for me. Keep the fat intake above 75%, ideally around 80%.

Stick with animal fats (lard, marrow, suet, muscle fat) and proteins if you can.

I've been craving carbs occasionally ever since, feeling tired here and there but that is good sign, in my opinion. My body is craving a source of energy, glucose and eventually will adapt to using ketones as fuel. Be patient, be strong...there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Wink

p.s.: I know what you mean about the nut butters!!! same thing happened to me with macadamia and almond nut butters...soo yummy and yet so lethal!

Moon

Thanks Kristi...I'm not sure where to pick up some pork belly, though. Certainly never seen it at any of the groceries or specialty stores around here...

Moon

Yesterday I caved and went for the butter again. Today, avocado and unsweet chocolate. So much for the dairy-free animal/coconut restrictions. Appetite seems a little better today, not raging quite so much out of control - but that's probably due to the 1800+ calorie breakfast...

Did my 12 mile run (actually more like 13.5) after work on Monday. I'm finding it harder to run - I'm slower and have less energy/endurance - since starting this WOE compared to when I was eating more vegetables but less fat/ overall calories, which is annoying/frustrating/disheartening. I know it's because I haven't adapted yet, but it's still hard to feel like I'm improving my health and lifestyle when I physically feel worse eating this way than I did before.

Also, after a couple of days of it so far, I'm really tired of my mouth tasting like I'm sucking on batteries all the time...

Weight's still holding fairly steady - no big losses, but at least no big gains, considering how much I've been eating.

Jessica

I just wanted to pop in and say "hi!"

:)

Jessica

Kristelle

Are you spilling ketones? What is the color?

If you are spilling ketones and feel this way...BE PATIENT! A few weeks of this, keeping things constant, no cheat days! and you will reep the benefits. If you cheat even a little, the adaptation will take that much longer and you will despair, go off plan and the vicious cycle continues.

If you are not spilling ketones, increase fats. Stick to animal fats, dairy fat is ok, like butter and cream but dont overdo it. I'm sure you can find some pork backfat, no? Or bone marrow? Find a butcher, ask them...

jeff

Moon, Kristi gives good advice. It does take time for the body to adapt. I know it can be difficult, but be patient.

Moon

Thanks, guys. I really am trying, but it's difficult. I don't know if I'm spilling ketones or not - last time I checked at the drugstore I couldn't find any ketosticks, so I haven't been able to do any checking that way.

I'm up almost 10lbs since my start at trying to go carnivore, and experiencing very dark moods/crying on a much more regular basis than when I was eating vegetables/regular low-carb paleo. Obviously I'm doing something wrong.

Part of my problem is that I am so, so scared to be hungry - remnants of my starving myself down to this weight and failed experiments with IF - so I'm now bouncing back by eating far more than I need in attempts to "tide me over" in case I'm not around food again for a while, which is rocketing me up to 3-4000+ calories every day. Psychological problems affecting the body, natch. I guess it's some stupid survival instinct or something, but I really need to get a handle on learning to recognize my hungry and full signals. Right now I just feel like all the wires are crossed in my brain and I'm not able to tell when I'm really hungry or when I'm just worried that there won't be any food around later in case I *do* get hungry, but it just seems like there's never a time when food *doesn't* appeal to me (i.e. I'm not getting signals for when to eat and when to stop like a normal person does.), nor do I ever really feel "full".

That's the most frustrating part - I know this way of eating is supposed to be naturally more satiating, but it's not having that effect on me. I keep reading more about leptin deficiency, thyroid conditions and hypoglycemia, and am wondering if either/both of those are to blame - I feel like a lot of the symptoms apply to me, so I'm not sure if I might have one of those conditions. May have given myself thyroid issues from my initial weightloss, and now concerned that my metabolism is royally screwed. Would like to have a doctor check me out, but haven't managed to work a visit into the schedule yet. My last GP was completely lame and praised me for all the weight loss, not recognizing the exercise-bulimia signs (no vomiting, just go run for 10 miles to burn off everything you ate that day), and now she's apparently skipped town anyway, so I have to find a new doc...

In the case of hypoglycemia, I've read of a number of people who seem to have similar problems on VLC/ZC, and feel better on a 30-40 daily carb regimine. Not sure if there's really something to it or if they didn't give VLC/ZC enough time to fully adapt, but if I continue feeling this lousy, drained & energy-less, unable to complete my workouts and continue gaining weight for much longer, I'm really going to have to rethink my strategies and try something different.

Also am experimenting with macro percentages...was eating 80+% fat for the past few days and limiting protein, but not feeling very sated, no matter how much fat I ate - didn't ever feel sick either, what's that all about? This morning I tried for different percentages - about 70/30, and I've felt less hungry this morning on about the same calories as I've been eating for breakfast the past few days (~1600ish...hoping to cut this down soon), so maybe I was needing more protein than I thought. Just need to make sure not to go too far in the other direction, like I mistakenly did when first starting out and ended up protein-binging with all the accompanying negative repercussions.

Heather L

Moon-- I hope things get better for you. Listen to your body... maybe you have changed things too quickly, and are having a rough time adapting.

Maybe you should go with the 30-40 carbs and ease into this more slowly, especially with your history. It sounds like a pretty rough time for you. Big Hug

Heather

Let me ask, how long have you been eating carnivore zero carb?

The first time I ever tried zero carb, I was doing atkins for years before so I was what I thought was very low carb, but it took me 14-15 days to adapt and during those 14-15 days I ate so, so much. Much more than most people could imagine but it was all meat, eggs and fat. It did get immediately way better after that.

And during that adaption time the workouts were very sluggish and slow but got better as well.

Hang in there it is a huge change for you body.

Moon

Hey Heather L, thanks for the support and well wishes. I do think the change is/was awfully sudden, and there's a lot of stress going on elsewhere in my life right now (work), which probably isn't helping much.

Other Heather (not sure of a better way to address you, lol), this is about week 4-ish of my trying to do VLC/ZC, but I had a few days of slipups spaced throughout earlier on where I consumed WAY too many nuts/nut butter, which I have since cut out completely - but I think it was things like that which have made it harder for me to adapt. The past few days actually haven't been as bad hunger-wise, so I might finally be adapting better - I hope! I'm still not really feeling the energy to go do my running or other cardio (again, partly this may be due to work stress right now, where all I want to do is sleep at the end of the day), and the low-energy/lack of training is making me nervous with my marathon in 2 months, but I'm hoping the energy will pick up soon. AND that these additional pounds I've picked up over the past month will go away. Roll Eyes

One thing, though, is that I'm still experiencing very low/sad moods when I think about how difficult it will be to eat this way in a social setting, or when I think about the sorts of foods that "I don't eat anymore" and thus miss Oops

. Not that I *couldn't* indulge in them, of course, but I know it will make adaptation that much harder if I do it now (as I've already experienced), and I'm worried/curious about how long it takes to 'readapt' when you go off plan for a meal or a day or a small vacation - does the whole adaptation period repeat itself? I don't think I want to go through several weeks again of eating pounds of meat and butter and still feeling starving because I wanted to order a salad in a restaurant or I decided to eat the green beans and asparagus at Thanksgiving dinner...

Heather

Moon

I wasn't able to do it anymore. I was feeling so energyless and depressed and starting to have some serious GI issues assert themselves, so I added back in broccoli and spinach, starting 2 days ago. After having just one meal with veggies, the difference was astounding - I wasn't sad anymore, I had both the physical and mental energy to complete my workout (6 mile run), and I didn't feel starving anymore.

I think that for me, right now, full on carnivory is not something that's going to work. So now I'm aiming to keep fat fairly high, protein limited (but not low...~1g/lb), and leafy green/cruciferous carbs (plus a small amount of cocoa or unsweetened chocolate) to <25-30 net, while fitday tracking everything to determine calorie ranges and macro balances that help me to lose. This is day 3 and my attitude has completely changed for the better.

Something valuable I *have* taken from this experimentation is the acceptance of fats and fatty meats into my diet, which I think is a plus, eh?

I'm also experimenting with frontloading my calories for the day. Usually I would have a "regular" sized breakfast, and spend the whole day starving. The past couple of days I've been having giant breakfasts, with a very small lunch (can of salmon) and a middling dinner, depending on how hungry I am. This morning was 12 oz 80/20 beef cooked in 1 TBS coconut oil, 1 lb broccoli with 4 TBS butter, and 1 small square unsweet chocolate. ~15-1600 calories (72ish% fat, 15ish net carbs), which makes me a little nervous since I've spent the past year and a half trying to eat in that range for the entire day, but we'll see how it goes. So far, it seems to be pretty good - I'm not starving by lunch, and I don't feel the urge to keep eating and eating and eating after I have dinner. If I don't lose anything after a week or two, I'll play around with food/cal daily istribution again, but for now we'll hold steady.

Heather L

Moon- I'm glad to hear you are feeling better. Sunny

Moon

Thanks, Heather :) I think my mistake was trying to do too much, too soon - and overdoing things in the process.

My weight is still up about 10 lbs from where it was mid-June (and where I'd like to be back again), and I'm fairly certain it's due to the hypercaloric intake I had when I was trying to do VLC/ZC, or at least the composition/balance of what I was taking in. Not that I did it perfectly, of course, which means I can't legitimately blame the weight gain on excess calories when there were so many other factors involved, but I do think it contributed. Despite the metabolic ward experiments (which are awesome to read), I don't think it works quite the same for everyone, and I guess my system just got overwhelmed.

I think that, for me, consumption of excess protein provides may provide more of an insulin response than eating moderate carbs does (possibly why IF seemed to fail when I tried it, also - too much in one sitting?). I was experimenting with frontloading my calories for the day, eating a LOT of meat at breakfast, but was feeling hunger response much sooner than I should have. This morning's breakfast was a giant bowl of Fauxtmeal: pureed cauliflower with eggs, flaxseed meal, cream cheese, cocoa powder and cinnamon. About 500 calories, and it kept me from feeling hungry almost all the way until lunch; whereas I was starving at about 10am after a breakfast of 1400 calories of meat & fat last week. One's thing's for certain: the human body is a strange and complex creature.

So, for now I'm counting calories, watching my protein, eating veggie & dairy carbs but keeping them within a certain range, and will see how this works. I'm feeling better than I was, especially with the increased fiber intake (despite all I've read of the great fiber con, NOT eating fibrous foods made my GI tract rebel horribly). I'm feeling better now, but still want to drop these extra lbs I've accumulated in the past two months. We'll see how things go - as always, will modify and experiment with different things if I observe that one way Just Isn't Working.

I also went to go see the doctor and had some blood taken for labs on my insulin, estrogen & thyroid levels. Hope those will be back soon so I can see if there's anything amiss there. I screwed up my system in the past year & a half with undereating & overexercise and went amenorrhoeic, which has not self-corrected, even after my taking on regular higher calories and less strenuous exercise. She issued me a birth control prescription that may help 'kickstart' things, so we'll see how that goes, too. I'm scared of weight gain from it, but I'm willing to try...just want to get healthy.

Heather

How's it going now?

I really hate bcp's, I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy, go figure....

Dean

Hello Moon.

Welcome to the Bus. I'm glad you're here, and are a part of Journaland and all. Cool

Sounds like you are really determined to get healthy. Remember, even if you are eating some veggies, which it sounds like you do better with, as long as you are eating plenty of animal food, you will be getting the benefits of that WOE. I would take all these great words of advice you've been getting, like listening to your body, taking it slower, etc. You'll figure out what you need to do. I've tried ZCarnivore and it's pretty hard to do it strictly. There are some that can, but, most find it easier to eat carnivorously if they include something else into the mix. Some use wine, some use coffee, some use both. Others use some veggies or even some fruit or what have you. You sound like you have good paleo roots in your eating, so, this carnivore thing is not really new to you.

Hang in there and let us know how it goes for you. One thing's for certain - you've always got a lot of support on the Bus.

Sunny