Omega Fats

Dean · Omega Fats

I've been experiencing some inflammation lately, and it seems to be getting worse. I was sorta worried that it might be related to a vitamin C deficiency, but, someone on another board mentioned that excess factory-farmed meat might give me inflammation due to the high amounts of Omega-6 fat. She suggested I supplement with fish oil for the Omega-3 balance.

Now, I had sorta dismissed the whole idea of O3/6 balance, but, perhaps there is something to it. I've always thought that is another benefit to eating grass-fed animals. I'm gonna get some fish oil supplements and see if it takes care of this inflammation. If so, that is going to put a whole new reason for doing grass-fed in my thinking.

What do others think of this? Are there certain fish oils that are better to use, and how long before I would show some improvement in my inflammation? Also, how much should I do? I'm going to stop the C that I've been on for just two days, and try the fish oil. Any thoughts or suggestions on this?

Hey, it's more animal fat for my experiment! Wink

jeff

Dean, how does this inflammation manifest itself?

Dean

Joint pain, mostly. Stiffness in wrists and hands. That arthritic type of thing. It comes and goes. I don't know if it's vitamin C or omega-3 that I lack. Do you take C or fish oil?

Nicola

Ray Peat is not pro PUFA's:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml

Nicola

Dean

Thanks, Nicola,

So, what do you think is causing this inflammation? Lack of C?

What's your take on grass-fed vs. grain-fed animals?

Nicola

Dan

Dean

Yes, I have, Dan. I quit java on January 3rd, after slowly cutting down over the previous month. I'm now only consuming fatty meat and seasoning, heading toward only dry seasoning. I'm very close to being there.

Tom

jeff

Thanks Tom, I'm sure many will find this helpful and interesting.

Dean

Welcome to the Bus, Tom.

Thanks for your response. Yah, that eatwild has been posted under Websites in the Chronicle Cave. Feel free to post these types of resources in the Cave anytime.

That's a really good resource, by the way. It has grown dramatically over the last few years, which is quite encouraging. Yup

y0u · Grass fed meat

Although I fully support buying local over buying mass produced food, some "grass fed" meats are massed produced. I was the meat buyer for a health food store, and set up the meat department for them.. In order for me to do this I had to do a lot of research. I interviewed all my local vendors, as well as speaking to the owners and managers of some well known more massed produced "free range grass fed" companies.

I learned a lot! If you can buy local, do it. If you can buy local that raises their own stock, and does NOT buy their stock on the open market, that is even better. It is legal for a farmer to buy cattle or any other animal on the open market, stick it on their land for 3 months and call it whatever they want. That animal could have been pumped full of hormones antibiotics and raised on corn, or gravel for all you know.

So in some ways, Bear may be right, it doesn't always make a difference. Some believe in the stress factor of the animal, and whether or not it was slaughtered humanely, that's another story...

As far as inflamation and fish oil goes, I personally have had great success with taking about 3,000 mg of fish oil daily. I have had a lot or surgery on both ankles and they used to swell all the time, when I take the fish oil, it goes away. It has also helped me with arthritus.

Hope this is helpful..y0u.

Dean

y0u, thanks for sharing this. That is very helpful. I'm hoping to find the same results with fish oil.

I have lots of connections with farmers all around the city who raise grass-fed animals. I am also able to raise my own animals with friends out in the country. Check the Websites and Articles forums in the Chronicle Cave. Check out the carbon farming, grass-fed threads. It's not just our health that is in peril, it's the environment that our health ultimately depends on that is really in crisis.

y0u

Dean, your very lucky indeed! I raise my own organic produce (yah I do eat some of that, don't hate me). But I mostly trade it for other stuff, and have cocktails in the garden with friends.

Yup

Sustainable farming is where it's at for sure!..I'll go check out that other thread, thanks. y0u.

y0u

Eat Wild is a great site, I used some of those farmers for the meat case at the store I worked at. Good resources in the rest of those threads also. There is a new certification going around for farmers for "Humane slaughter". It's really a great thing. I think I am hijacking this thread, I better shut up. Yup

Dean

That's OK, y0u. Hijacking threads is a tradition around here. Wink

jeff

y0u

Oh good, cause I keep drinking too much of that Kool-Aid at the back of the bus and forget what thread I am in....oh man....I am seeing things..

Lynne

i didn't want to start a new thread about my hunting expedition, today..
so i'll post it here.
ok?

today, i hit another hispanic market for my meat.
i found chuck blade steaks about 1.5-2inches thick for $1.99 per lb.
i was pretty surprised.
bought 3 of them.
butcher sold me 4.46 lbs of beef fat for 19 cents a lb.. 85 cents worth!!!!

i cooked up one of those chuck steaks and i swear to goddess...
it was as tender as a ribeye and melted in my mouth.
i could not believe it.
in fact, it was more tender than my last 2 ribeye's.

god i love this country!!!

carry on.

Dean

So, what has more omega fats - chuck steak or Kool-Aid? Wink

y0u

Dean

y0u have already passed the acid test... y0u don't have to keep taking it over and over. Wow

y0u better slow down a bit, or y0u might end up like Syd Barrett. Bonkers

Dean

I think I'm gonna (try to) hijack my thread back... if that's even possible since Shawn's last batch hit the back of the Bus. Wow

I got some fish oil and cod liver oil yesterday, and I have been taking them with my fingers crossed. Thing that sucks, is it got close to zero here last night. That's degrees F, not carbs. Roll Eyes

Well, this morning, my left leg was stiff and felt very arthritic. I, like lots of people, have these symptoms exacerbated during cold weather. What is weird is it only effected my left leg. No joint pain or any other pain anywhere.

I'm not sure what's going on, but, I will keep taking the C, the fish oil, and the cod liver oil. Oh, yah, and the Kool-Aid, of course. Wink

I now return this thread to whatever psychedelic ramblings that may or may not occur.

As Lynne said... carry on. Cool

y0u

Dean, I hope it's not too late for me. I do spend an awful lot of time in my garden Roll Eyes

Lynne

Dean, did you ever have an injury on your right leg?

short story: i was in a car accident when i was 18. broke pelvic bone and other injuries. speed forward to 51 yrs old and the pelvic injury came back to haunt me.
i got arthritis really bad in the break, causing me to become very very handicapped.
had to have the right hip replaced.
speed forward to 4 months later and you'd never known i had arthritis.

and with this WOE, i KNOW i'll never get arthritis in any of my joints or hip again.. and i'm saying that with an air of confidence.

**** who stole the blotter acid out of the medicine cabinet????

Dean

Lynne,

No injuries. But, I did fracture the bone in one of my hands and I've noticed arthritic conditions there at times.

Right now, I'm taking one multi, one gram of C, 2 fish oil capsules, and 2 tbsp of cod liver oil, along with my usual hits of sunshine. Wink

I'm doing this twice a day. I'm gonna do this for a month or two and see what happens.

I will definitely keep y'all updated on my results. Cool

Lynne

i was at the beach today..
i posted some pics in the scenic view..

enjoy;)

jeff

Ellen · question

Dean, if you don't mind me asking, what foods do you eat every day?

Dean

Ellen,

Over the last couple months, I've been eating chicken wings, chicken thighs, whole turkey, whole duck, pork belly, pork chops, beef brisket, beef ribs, chuck roast, prime rib, chuck eye, rib eye, tenderloin, shrimp, crab, and dry seasoning.

To drink was coffee for the first month, but, very little, as I was cutting down from only two cups a day, down to a swallow. Had a little wine the first month, on major holidays and birthdays, then, for the last month, only water.

I'm planning on adding in butter, eggs, and cheese, starting tomorrow... or maybe in a week. It's that damn science thingy, ya know. Roll Eyes

MAC

Ellen · dairy

I was going to suggest you add eggs and butter at least, but you've already figured that out. They both have essential fatty acids that are needed for good health. And they add saturated fat which is really important for cellular health. Here's a link with more info about butter: http://westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html#butter

Dean

I was going to add eggs, butter, and a little cheese, only because it is part of my MAM Experiment, and it is also part of the way in which I want to eat in the future. I cut those things out a couple months ago so that I could lose some excess body fat quicker, but, also because I was wanting to eat up a lot of meat I had in my freezer that was getting old. Then, the MAM Experiment started and this seemed to be an opportunity to see how those things affect body fat loss. I'm pretty certain that it's all about calories, but, perhaps there is voodoo in them eggs and that cow pus. Wink

Dean

So, Ellen,

What do you think about taking fish oil and cod liver oil? That's what I started doing about a week ago, for the EFAs.

A pure meat (especially naked meat) and water diet is not my cup of tea, thank you very much. Wasn't Bear's either.

There are veggies and berries and such that are probably pretty benign, also. It's all up for experimentation. It starts with carnivore eating, which is what we evolved on for a long time, but, I don't think it necessarily must stop there. Roll Eyes

Ellen · fish oil and cod liver oil

Dean, I take them every day. 1 gram of Ultimate Omega fish oil by Nordic naturals and a good quality cod liver oil for vitamins A and D. I think the best thing to do for good health is to reduce or avoid processed foods including refined vegetable oils. Vegetable oils are high in Omega 6 fatty acids which are inflammatory.

In addition, the major vegetable oils include corn, soybean, canola and cottonseed. The majority of these crops in the US are all genetically engineered to withstand major applications of pesticides. Be aware that the seeds from these crops carry the genetic and pesticides residues with them, also contributing to inflammation.

Most refined vegetable oils have been treated with toxic solvents and heated to high temperatures in the refining process; this process damages the polyunsaturated fats within the oils. Foods made with these oils include mayonnaise, salad dressings, and most processed foods.

To reduce inflammation, reduce your consumption of refined vegetable oils; choose organic butter, virgin coconut oil or cold pressed olive oil to saute foods, and used cold press sesame, walnut, olive or flax oil in homemade salad dressings.

A meat and water diet will make you very sick if you go too long on it.. explorers used to call this "rabbit starvation". The body needs fat more than it needs protein. All of your cell walls are made from cholesterol and fatty acids, and your brain is about 20% cholesterol/fat.

here's a wiki link about rabbit starvation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

Dean

Ellen,

I know you're new here, but, just FYI, I'm completely against consuming any non-animal fat, and believe that non-animal fat and carb consumption is the main reason for many of the diseases we see today. One of my favorite sayings is "animal fat is where it's at". Cool

I also know all about rabbit starvation. I have been keeping my fat ratio in the 80% range, and since starting my MAM Experiment, in the 90% range. As long as one keeps their fat ratio high, a (fatty) meat and water diet is not going to make them sick. This is not a Kimkins board. LOL

What might be a problem is grain-fed versus grass-fed animals, which is what this thread started out about, although, it did get a bit "misdirected" shall we say... some might say it got hijacked, but, under the influence of Kool-Aid, I'm not sure that would be an accurate description. These newbies just aren't used to Shawn's kitchen clean batches, but, in time, they will become more accustomed to all the new colors. Wink

jeff

Tom

Ellen · Here's a study. http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/83/5/1167

Tom · Here's a study. http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/83/5/1167

Cody

Dean, how's the knee doing lately? Any better?

Also, what do you guys think is the minimum ratio of fat? I've been going anywhere from 65 to 85%. Some days I have a hard time eating more than 65%, because I feel so full.

Dean

Cody,

Thanks for asking.

It is actually my left leg. It is the outside, just below the hip, that is sore at times. I had the exact same thing on my right leg for awhile. I also briefly had other inflammation in my hand joints and my right knee. All have subsided except a bit in the spot on my left leg, which causes pain to shoot all the way down my leg, especially when I raise it up with my leg straight (knee not bent).

I have been taking fish oil and cod liver oil and vitamin C. How much fish oil and cod liver oil do you think I should be taking?

Cody

I would watch the cod liver oil, and focus mostly on the fish oil. You can get way too much Vitamin A from cod liver oil. I think you are fine taking what you are talking, but I'd try raising the fish oil to something like 6 grams per day.

I've seen where people have taken as much as 15 grams per day of fish oil, but that was for Type 2 diabetes (it raised insulin sensitivity significantly in 6 weeks).
How do you feel about some herbal anti-inflammatories, like turmeric?

Dean

I'm game for anything, but, I especially wanna figure out what is going on. This whole thing started back in November, right after I ditched everything but (factory-farmed) meat and seasoning. Sad

Cody

I'm wondering if your body is just adapting.

Do you eat any cartilage or connective tissue? I've grown to love ripping off the ends of my hot wings and crunching on them for a while. What about pork rinds? There is no consensus on eating these things, but the type of protein found in pork rinds is the same type used in connective tissue (collagen). Couldn't hurt.

y0u

Dean, have you ever tried Glucosamine and or Chondroitin? One of my brothers swore by the stuff, he had a lot of joint/hip problems. He eventually had to have a hip replaced. But before that he did have some success with it.

I hope you can figure this out. In the meantime..if it makes you feel any better, I'll let you borrow my women woman wig. Grin

Dean

I don't have any pain in my hips. I just have this annoying stiffness/soreness in a spot about half a foot or so down from my hip. It is at the top of my leg, on the outer left side of my left leg. Like I said, I had the exact same soreness on my right leg, in the same spot, but, it went away. The colder it gets, the stiffer my leg gets. It loosens up during the day, but, after I've been sitting awhile, when I get up, it is sorta stiff. It's inflammation of some kind, that I'm sure of, since other inflammation has come along with it at times. This is not normal for me, so it must have something to do with the food I'm eating.

Of course, there is NO difference between grain-fed and grass-fed meat. So, it can't be that! Roll Eyes

y0u

Dean, next time I'm at the back of the bus, I'll rub some butter on your leg...I am sure that will help. Devil

Dean

Which leg did y0u have in mind? Devil

Ellen · study results

Tom,

The longer the cattle grazed, the less saturated fat was found in the muscle tissue, and the better the Omega 3 fat to Omega 6 ratio (it was closer to 1:1)

Ellen

Dean

y0u

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html#benefits

Dean

I'm well aware of the benefits, especially to the cells, but, what I am asking is if there is perhaps a need for a balance of other fats as well. I mean, grass-fed meat still has plenty of sat fat.

Ellen · animal fat

Dean, I think there is a benefit to getting a little of all of the different kinds of fat - saturated, monosat, and polyunsaturated.. each has a role in supporting the body..

and meat actually supplies all three types.. Gary Taubes in Good Calories, Bad Calories writes the fat in a steak and how if effects your blood lipid profile..

paraphrasing, he said: the fat in animal products is not all saturated. About 51% of the fat in a steak is monosaturated (like olive oil). About 45% of the fat is saturated fat, but of that, a third is a type of fat called stearic acid, which has been shown to increase the good HDL cholesterol and leave LDL unchanged. The remaining 4% is polyunsaturated fat which has been shown to lower LDL cholesterol. So in summary, 70% of the fat in a steak or in bacon or lard will improve your levels of HDL and LDL cholesterol.

He got his figures out of the National Nutritional database..
The study authors are "assuming" that humans would want to eat less sat, and grazing does make cattle leaner. I'm not sure I've spoken to your question though..

Tom · Re: study results

Dean

Tom,

There really is no consensus surrounding this issue on the Bus, but, like you, I, and others here, feel very much the same about the difference between grass-fed and grain-fed animals, and what the health consequences, let alone environmental consequences, may be.

Most people simply cite the expense of grass-fed meat as the reason they don't eat it. I've used that same excuse at times myself. Some dislike the taste, and others genuinely don't think there is a difference.

It's an ongoing debate, and, for a carnivore board, an important one, IMO.

Tom

Omega Fats

Grass fed meat

question

dairy

fish oil and cod liver oil

study results

animal fat

Re: study results