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Nicola

Protein digestion

I have never been able to digest light-coloured meats (well thats what I think because I don't feel good on them and I don't like the way they go threw me). Cooked lamb always needed a lot of salt; eating raw meat I don't use salt and lamb is no better raw (mutton is better).

I am wondering about protein digestion. Beef is a dark meat and acid - digestion should be good. What about other meats? I wonder about eating all that fat with them? Bear and others mention not to use salt.

I found this:

Saturated fats like meat fat can make the digestion worse because
they are low in the unsaturated fats and provide a basically neutral
environment in the intestines, but actually diluting HCL. In this
instance the intestines can't really ferment the meat and age it yet
the stomach acid is not strong enough to provide a good environment
for oxidating.

Nicola
jeff

The only thing I've noticed is that raw meat seems to digest much easier than cooked meat.
Nicola

Yes beef, horse, mutton...dark meat seems less trouble.

Lamb does not work wonders; even cooked.

Raw has always been better for me but now I am wondering  just how well people are digesting cooked or raw.

Eating fat may influence digestion just like drinking a lot of water.

Eat raw beef and do a days work - eat raw lamb and do a days work; that will make a difference.

I don't think Lex would do as well on all raw lamb vs. beef Cry .

Nicola
Tracy

I've not noticed any digestion problems, but I don't feel as satisfied on light meats as I do with darker meats. Beef and game meat make me feel much better than lamb, pork or fowl. I have no idea why that is.
Nicola

This is the answer I got from Dr. Groves:

Hi Nicola

About saturated fat makes no sense. Whoever wrote it is ignorant of how the
body works.

The acid in the stomach is hydrochloric acid (HCl). It needs a supply of
clorine to replenish it. That chlorine comes in the diet, usually from
salt -- sodium chloride.

In palaeotimes, the blood of animals would have been used. These days
animals are bled. I think you would do well to use  salt again.

The difference between people's digestion could be that some eat salt and
some don't.

Regards

Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
Co-producer: Be Slim Without Dieting (Video / DVD)
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk
http://www.diabetes-diet.org.uk
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.org.uk
Nicola

jeff wrote:
The only thing I've noticed is that raw meat seems to digest much easier than cooked meat.


Hi Jeff,

You seem to be doing well...raw meat seems to digest easier (this is why I eat this way); how do you get on with salt? Is this an important part on your menu with - raw or cooked?

What about water? What have you noticed with high fat and the need to drink?

Do you feel like drinking coffee in the summer - does the need for cream and coffee never change when it's hot?

Are you always happy with what you feel when you go for your run?

Sorry about so many questions - but your body and mind seem to get on well...

Nicola
Kim

I have not noticed any problems digesting different kinds of meat.  I do eat cooked meat and do use sea salt.  I do find that when eating chicken, especially white meat, that I get the hiccups.

Kim
Kristelle

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THANKS A MILLION, NICOLA and of course, BARRY GROVES, indirectly.

I just figured it all out... Wow

My diet was lacking salt, namely chlorine (maybe other minerals too, who knows??), which resulted in lack of HCL, hence poor digestion and all the other problems I've had stemming from stomach digestive problems. I looked up hydrochloric acid deficiency symptoms and what do you know?! Most, if not all of my symptoms are listed...OMG!!! This is truly a moment of joy for me.

This probably explains why I felt better when eating salty kosher meats, energy was higher, felt lighter, better. But the salt on the meat was refined and I was taking a little too much which caused acid reflux and palpitations.

I'll be sticking with seal salt, I found a really good source, totally unrefined and gray. From France. And putting some on my meats. It's more tasty that way, anyways so that's a bonus.

Bear probably got his chlorine from his cheese. Our paleolithic ancestors, either from blood or seawater or something of that sort.

Bonkers  I'm going nuts...I'm truly elated!
Sol

Kristelle,

Congratulations on finding this big piece of wisdom. Nicola, thank you so much for sharing it.

I'm truly delighted for you. You've worked so hard at this, you deserve to be healthy.

Sol
Kristelle

Thanks Sol.  Happy
jeff

Nicola wrote:
jeff wrote:
The only thing I've noticed is that raw meat seems to digest much easier than cooked meat.


Hi Jeff,

You seem to be doing well...raw meat seems to digest easier (this is why I eat this way); how do you get on with salt? Is this an important part on your menu with - raw or cooked?

What about water? What have you noticed with high fat and the need to drink?

Do you feel like drinking coffee in the summer - does the need for cream and coffee never change when it's hot?

Are you always happy with what you feel when you go for your run?

Sorry about so many questions - but your body and mind seem to get on well...

Nicola

I don't use much salt.  It does not seem to matter if I use salt or not.  

Water.....I do not feel the need to drink much water.  I have to force myself to drink more than 2 or 3 glasses of water per day.

I like coffee just as much in the summer.  The weather does not seem to matter.

Running....Usually I am happy with how I feel when I run.  But there are times when running just does not seem to work well.
AlexF

Kristi31 wrote:
Bear probably got his chlorine from his cheese. Our paleolithic ancestors, either from blood or seawater or something of that sort.


It could be that since our paleo-ancestors drank fresh unfiltered water, from streams and springs for example, they possibly got some trace minerals they needed that way, including chloride.

A brief search found the following.  The person who wrote this is a "ND" so
take this info with a grain of salt, no pun intended.

http://www.eletewater.com/elpdf/chloride_meletis.pdf

Quote:
Chloride: The Forgotten Essential Mineral
By Chris D. Meletis, N.D.

Chloride is a highly important, vital mineral required for both human and
animal life.
Chloride is an “essential” mineral for humans. It is abundant in ionic trace mineral preparations. It is a
major mineral nutrient that occurs primarily in body fluids. Chloride is a prominent negatively
charged ion of the blood, where it represents 70 percent of the body’s total negative ion content. On
average, an adult human body contains approximately 115 grams of chloride, making up about 0.15
percent of total body weight.1 The suggested amount of chloride intake ranges from 750 to 900
milligrams (mg) per day, based on the fact that total obligatory loss of chloride in the average person
is close to 530 mg per day.
As the principle negatively charged ion in the body, chloride serves as one of the main electrolytes of
the body. Chloride, in addition to potassium and sodium, assists in the conduction of electrical
impulses when dissolved in bodily water. Potassium and sodium become positive ions as they lose an
electron when dissolved, and chloride becomes a negative ion as it gains an electron when dissolved.
A positive ion is always accompanied by a negative ion, hence the close relationship between sodium,
potassium, and chloride. Electrolytes are distributed throughout all body fluids including the blood,
lymph, and the fluid inside and outside cells.2 The negative charge of chloride balances against the
positive charges of sodium and potassium ions in order to maintain serum osmolarity.

Pivotal Roles of Chloride in the Body

In addition to its functions as an electrolyte, chloride combines with hydrogen in the stomach to make
hydrochloric acid—a powerful digestive enzyme responsible for the breakdown of proteins, the
absorption of other metallic minerals, and activation of intrinsic factor, which, in turn, absorbs vitamin
B12. Chloride is specially transported into the gastric lumen, in exchange for another negatively
charged electrolyte (bicarbonate) in order to maintain electrical neutrality across the stomach
membrane. After utilization in hydrochloric acid, some chloride is reabsorbed by the intestine, back
into the bloodstream where it is required for maintenance of extracellular fluid volume.  Chloride is both actively and passively absorbed by the body, depending on the current metabolic
demands. A constant exchange of chloride and bicarbonate between red blood cells and the plasma
helps govern pH balance and transport carbon dioxide, a waste product of respiration, from the body.
With sodium and potassium, chloride works in the nervous system to aid in the transport of electrical
impulses throughout the body, as movement of negatively charged chloride into the cell propagates
the nervous electrical potential.

Deficiency of Chloride

A deficiency of chloride is rare. However, when it does occur, it results in a life-threatening condition
known as alkalosis, in which the blood becomes overly alkaline. A tedious balance between alkalinity
and acidity is in constant flux, and must be vigilantly maintained throughout the entire body. Alkalosis
may occur as a result of excessive loss of sodium, such as heavy sweating during endurance exercise,
and in cases of prolonged vomiting and diarrhea. Symptoms include muscle weakness, loss of
appetite, irritability, dehydration, and profound lethargy. Hypochloremia may result from water
overload, wasting conditions, and extensive bodily burns with sequestration of extracellular fluids. In
a situation in which infants were inadvertently fed chloride-deficient formula, many experienced
failure to thrive, anorexia, and weakness in their first year of life.3
“The suggested amount of chloride intake ranges from 750 to 900 milligrams (mg)
per day, based on the fact that total obligatory loss of chloride in the average
person is close to 530 mg per day.”

Excess Intake?

Excessive intakes of dietary chloride only occur with the ingestion of large amounts of salt and
potassium chloride. The toxic effects of such diets, such as fluid retention and high blood pressure, are
attributed to high sodium and potassium levels.4 Chloride toxicity has not been observed in humans
except in the special case of impaired sodium chloride metabolism, e.g., in congestive heart failure.5
Healthy individuals can tolerate the intake of large quantities of chloride provided there is a
concomitant intake of fresh water. Another situation in which increased blood levels of chloride are
seen include diseases of improper waste elimination, which occurs in kidney diseases. Excess chloride
is normally excreted in the urine, sweat, and bowels. In fact, excess urinary excretion of chloride
occurs in high-salt diets. Excessive intakes of chloride can occur in a person with compromised health
in addition to an unhealthy diet. However, those who follow a healthy diet and lead an active lifestyle
may need to consider supplementing their diet with this important mineral.

Chloride vs. Chlorine

The mineral supplement chloride is very different from the gas chlorine. Elemental chlorine is a
dangerous gas that does not exist in the free elemental state in nature because of its reactivity, although
it is widely distributed in combination with other elements. Chloride is related to chlorine, however,
only as one of the most common chlorine compounds is common salt, NaCl. Chloride is a by-product of the reaction between chlorine and an electrolyte, such as potassium, magnesium, or sodium, which
are elements that are essential for human metabolism. Chloride salts are essential for sustaining human
metabolism and have none of the effects of isolated chlorine gas.

Sources of Chloride

Chloride occurs naturally in foods at levels normally less than 0.36 milligrams per gram of food. The
average intake of chloride during a salt-free diet is approximately 100 milligrams per day.
Unfortunately, chloride is found commonly combined with undesirable dietary sources. The most
common of these negative sources is table salt. Table salt is made from a combination of sodium and
chloride ions. Other unhealthful sources include yeast extracts, processed lunchmeats, and cheeses.
Healthier sources of chloride include kelp (seaweed), ionic trace minerals, olives, rye, tomatoes,
lettuce, and celery, but are not in large enough amounts to supply the needs of an active adult.6 In its
original form, however, chloride is leached from various rocks into soil and water by years of
weathering processes. The chloride ion is highly mobile and is transported to closed basins, such as
the Great Salt Lake or oceans.7
“Without chloride, the human body would be unable to maintain fluids in blood
vessels, conduct nerve transmissions, move muscles, or maintain proper kidney
function.”

Summary

Chloride is a highly important, vital mineral required for both human and animal life. Without
chloride, the human body would be unable to maintain fluids in blood vessels, conduct nerve
transmissions, move muscles, or maintain proper kidney function. As a major electrolyte mineral of
the body, chloride performs many roles, and is rapidly excreted from the body. Active adults that eat a
healthy diet devoid of salt as well as illnesses in which vomiting and/or diarrhea are profuse warrant
the supplementation of additional chloride.
Replacement of chloride is essential on a daily basis to maintain regular metabolic function. Chloride
is safely utilized by the body, without negative health effects. Of the negative health effects that have
been associated with diets high in chloride, these are mainly attributable to the accompanying sodium
and potassium, two other electrolyte minerals to which chloride is often attached.



I cook with French grey sea salt too.  Here's a mineral breakdown...

Quote:
Nutritional profile of Le Paludier unrefined Grey Sea Salt (coarse, moist)

The grey sea salt from Guérande provides a full spectrum matrix of minerals and micro-nutrients.

It is known as the sea salt with the highest content of magnesium.

Typical analysis of Guérande sea salt:

HUMIDITY                6.75%
INSOLUBLES IN WATER 0.34%
SULPHATES(S04-)    1.90%
CHLORIDE                54.50%
POTASSIUM               0.20%
CALCIUM                 0.12%
MAGNESIUM              0.71%
SODIUM                 35.20%
COPPER                 2.5 mg/kg.
ZINC                           5 mg / kg.
MANGANESE              6.8 mg / kg.
IRON                           85 mg / kg.
IODINE                  traces
Other trace elements including: fluoride, boron, barium, beryllium, cobalt, gallium, gold, nickel, palladium, sulfur, selenium, silver, thallium...for a total of over 80 elements.


 
Tracy

Kristelle, congrats! You've really worked hard at all this, so I'm glad you've discovered the issue and it's an easy fix.

I use the grey French salt as well - thanks Alex for the breakdown. I either let it dry out a little and put it in a salt mill or keep it in a bowl. Sometimes I use the pink Himalayan salt as well, which is supposed to be good.
Kristelle

Thanks Trace!
Nicola

Betaine is a source of hydrochloric acid (HCL), an acid found in digestiv juices that's involved in the production of the enzyme pepsin.

There are no food sources of betaine hydrochloride and it's not an essential nutrient.

HCL converts pepsinogen to pepsin, an enzyme that breaks down protein. As people age, HCL secretion may be reduced which means decreased levels of pepsin.

Betaine HCL is not the same as hydrochloric acid to aid digestion.
Hydrochloric acid is the water-based solution of (HCI) hydrogenchloride gas. It is a strong acid, the major component of gastric acid.

The body makes Betain from Cholin (found in raw! meat, liver, egg). Cholin is reduced by estrogen, suger, alcohol.

All the information I can find is not based on a raw meat and fat diet / paleo diet. No mention of how carnivore animals make hydrogenchloride gas with out extra salt.

Nicola
AlexF

Nicola wrote:
No mention of how carnivore animals make hydrogenchloride gas with out extra salt.

Nicola


Whatever method they use to make hydrochloric acid, the compounds used to make it must come from the raw meat they consume.  Where else?  The question is, do our bodies make acid the same way wild carnivores do?
Nicola

http://www.paleodietonline.com/20...tion-is-key-to-health-part-2.html

I was expecting salt to be mentioned...

Nicola
Nicola

Quote:
Hi Nicola

I am group A as well. But as the whole "different blood group/different diet" thing is nonsense, let's not go off-track into the nonsensical.

Your body needs both chlorine and sodium, which it can only get from what you eat. it doesn't matter which foods you eat to get them, but if the food you eat doesn't contain them, then you have to eat something like salt which does.

Pretty much all meats and other animal products contain sodium and chlorine in the form of sodium chloride (salt). In a temperate climate such as most of us live in, we only need abour 3 grams of salt a day but, as this much can be lost in about 2 hours of sweating on a warm day, in a hotter climate we may need much more as the amount is directly related to water requirements - sweat more, lose more, need to eat more. In this respect we are all different.

Most common indicator of sodium ideficiency is muscle cramps. let your body be your guide.

Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
Nicola

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=107956231
Sol

Hi Nicola,

I don't know if you're willing to eat anything cooked but bone broth, especially broth made with bones that will form gelatin, greatly helps with protein digestion.

I make bone broth almost every day now.

Sol
Nicola

I don't know how/why broth could/would help with protein digestion - unless it is made with salt; the salt would help digestion. Broth has gelatine which is protein anyway...

Nicola
Sol

Hi Nicola,

I posted a link to an article about broth here:

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/sutra26538.php#26538

Here are a couple of interesting quotes from the article. It's not about the salt.

Quote:
Although gelatin is not a complete protein, containing only the amino acids arginine and glycine in large amounts, it acts as a protein sparer, helping the poor stretch a few morsels of meat into a complete meal. During the siege of Paris, when vegetables and meat were scarce, a doctor named Guerard put his patients on gelatin bouillon with some added fat and they survived in good health.


Quote:
The American researcher Francis Pottenger pointed out that as gelatin is a hydrophilic colloid, which means that it attracts and holds liquids, it facilitates digestion by attracting digestive juices to food in the gut.


I find bone broth to be incredibly soothing.

Sol
Nicola

When I was cooking my meat I was deep in with the broth - now I eat raw and don't have those extra thoughts. I can not say that the broth did any thing - just extra work.

I have lost the connection to cooked food.

Sol, I have tryed a few times know asking you about salt - do you use extra salt?

Nicola
Sol

Hi Nicola,

Yes, I use salt - celtic seasalt. I like the flavor. I don't know if it does anything for me or not.

Sol
Nicola

Achloridia - thyroid - iodine:


Paleo carnivores ate organs - not just xxx lb of beef and fat. Not all had access to the sea.

http://www.coconutstudio.com/Iodine.htm

http://www.quackcenter.com/ideficiency.html

Nicola
Nicola

This is also interesting about the thyroid (with the change to agriculture):

http://coconutdiet.com/thyroid_health.htm

I am not into coconut oil, just the connection to thyroid health and agriculture.

Nicola
Nicola

I was and am still wondering about our need for salt and how the body makes "hydrochloric acid". This is an answer I got from Peter's "Hyperlipid Blogg" (vet):

Peter's blogg:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

and my questions and answers can be "tracked down" ...

http://tinyurl.com/5oyuqk

Nicola said...
Hi Peter,

It is said that we need extra salt to digest cooked meat / protein.
I don't know for shore and when I ask others some believe we need salt but don't know for shore. Those following a raw meat diet claim that salt is not needed.

How do animals on a natural diet of raw meat make hydrochloric acid?

Peter said...
Nicola,

I'm not really sure where the question comes from. As I understand it the enzyme carbonic anhydrase splits H2CO3 in parietal cells to give a bicarbonate ion (which ends up in the plasma pool in exchange for a chloride ion) and an H+ ion which is pumped in to the gastric lumen with the Cl- ion. The bicarbonate ion, as NaHCO3, is used to neutralise the HCl in the small intestine giving NaCl. NaCl is easily absorbed from the intestine. I can see no net loss of sodium or chloride here. So is the cooked meat supposed to be doing something to this cycle which raw meat doesn't?

Beyond me.

BTW extracellular fluid is sodium and chloride rich, there is a fair amount in meat, especially if you drink the gravy. Our kidneys have phenomenal powers of sodium retention on a zero added salt diet. Serious sodium disturbance is fatal. I spend half my life pouring salty water of assorted compositions in to the veins of patients in which the control system has gone wrong for various reasons.

Peter

Nicola said...
Hello Peter,

The real human diet is a totally carnivorous one...but when it comes to salt?

http://tinyurl.com/6kouyp

http://tinyurl.com/589yul

Do you believe/know if raw or cooked meat needs extra salt for our body to produce hydrochloric acid and meet all body needs?

Nicola

Peter said...
I would agree that it is possible to be healthy eating a totally carnivorous diet but I personally doubt very much that it has been the pattern for humans world wide.

To reject vegetable food complepetely would be too wasteful of available resources. This seems as contrarian as the vegan approach, except the full vegans do not seem to be healthy long term (not that I know any) unless they supplement, where as full carnivory allows this.

Re salt, digestion cycles salt. Those who suggest cooking increases total body salt requirement need a mechanism. Without that it smells like religion to me. Full carnovores are perfectly well able to extract the 160mmol of salt from extracellular fluid and a few more mmol from intracellular fluid. Zero sodium urine is well within the ability of humans, dogs and cats.

Where is the physiology to base the discussion around?

Peter


So how do you people understand Peter?

Nicola

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