| Archive for The Magic Bus Trip Never get off the Bus! |
| Sol |
Thoughts on why I might not be losing body fat?Hi,I've been nearly completely carnivorous, and largely raw, for the last couple of months. In that time I went down from 18% body fat to 17.7% body fat. I thought, at one time, that I was losing fat but when I started tracking hydration level (my Tanita does this) I found that the sum of body fat and water level has been close to constant for the last month or so. I don't do dairy or anything others than animal foods since the May contest started. I eat lots of raw animal fat, lots of meat, and some eggs. Does anyone have experience hitting a plateau with fat loss. Any ideas on the cause and resolution? Thanks, Sol |
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| Dean |
Boy, Sol, that is what was happening to me for a long time. I attributed it to excess calories, mainly, and for me, it was that last bit of fat I was trying to lose that has always been hard to do. In the past, when doing lower fat eating, I could lose that last bit of fat, but, I'm not sure that was very healthy. I felt sick, etc.
I've seen your pic, and, I know what my body is like, and, my thoughts are that both of us need to do a huge amount of body building and put on tons of muscle. I don't think it will matter after that. I honestly think our ancestors had so much more muscle mass than we do. I would venture to guess that anyone who worked out hard with resistance would end up melting the fat away, and this would end up not being a problem, no matter what their level of calories of animal foods. BTW, this is just a theory, so don't shoot me if it doesn't work.  
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| jeff |
It could be too many calories, Sol. You don't have alot to lose, so you may be at the point where you really need to watch calories.
Last summer I dropped some weight pretty quickly by combining IF, reduced calories, and lots of exercise. |
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| Kristelle |
Try dropping the eggs. Some guy did that and lost more weight. He stuck to meat and fat only. | ||||||
| Nicola |
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmik...ow-carb-and-calories-2/#more-1243
Human nutrition strategy Dean, don't you think that you are looking for "some thing" that may be missing; perhaps it's more psychological (learning stress has past - new hole*) with your new "diet plan"? Our mind is very powerfull and will find all kinds of "modern" strategys - whilst cooking (even a little) is part of thinking and handeling. *Your dad is part of your life - time is most important; life is to have time to process emotions and let go. Have faith  .
Nicola |
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| Sol |
Thanks, everyone, for the input. I've got some things to think about.
Kristelle - I'm not eager to restrict my diet even more than it is right now but I may drop the eggs for a while to see if that helps. Dean - I'm not going to work on getting bigger muscles. My weight lifting sessions are done in a style to make one stronger, not bigger. I like this approach. I wouldn't assume that cavemen were buff. They could have been very strong and lean. Bodybuilding focuses on making muscles big but it doesn't train the body overall to be strong. Jeff - I could do IF as I'm not hungry lots of the time. I could count calories and see if I could lower them for a while. I could add a bunch of cardio to my life for a while and see if that'd make a difference. Another factor for me is liver cleansing/healing. When I started earnest carnivory a couple of months ago my liver was still a bit strained. While it is MUCH better now, I still have some eczema. I may take up a liver campaign in June as well. So, is it a myth that carnivores can eat what they want, as long as it's from an animal, and they all become lean? Would the lean carnivores please share if they were once fat and if they had to do something special to lose fat? I'm going on an overseas trip between 6/7 and 6/17, where I won't be doing carnivore, but will still favor meat dishes. When I return I'll pick one or more ideas, try them, and journal about them. More ideas? Sol |
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| Dean |
Nicola, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Would you please try to explain it again? Thanks.
Sol, I totally agree about the strength versus size. I agree that modern "body builders" are more "pumped up with glycogen" as Bear pointed out, than truly strong. I think you are correct in wanting to build stronger muscles and stay lean. I'm sorry if I was unclear with my suggestions, but, that is what I meant. I meant get stronger, not bigger. You may be very strong and it doesn't show in your photo. Sorry for assuming things about what a muscular body should look like. Been conditioned to think in those "modern body building" ways.
I mentioned calories, cuz I agree with that Eades thread that Nicola linked to. It is my theory and experience that on VLC/ZC one will not gain, but, one will not lose unless a caloric deficit is created. I read that whole Eades thread, and agree with everything he said. I've often speculated that was the case. It was Eades who explained the futile cycle deal, and, although, at the time, I thought it only worked to some extent, after seeing jeff's and my own experiments with huge amounts of calories not adding a gram of body fat, I believe that futile cycles burn up all excess dietary fat, provided insulin is low (VLC/ZC eating). However, as Eades explains in that thread, if you don't cut down on the dietary fat, you won't lose the stored body fat. I have found this to be true many times. In the past, when I was eating more lean meats and some VLC veggies, I lost that ab roll of fat easily. As I said in my first post above, I do think there is a fine line to walk with this, though. Think Kimkins and hair loss, etc. I know that keeping my animal fat at least at adequate levels is what I will always wanna do. I hate counting calories, so I usually employ IF to cut back on calories. Have been doing that lately and trimming up nicely. 
Of course, exercise will help with creating this caloric deficit. Whether through hormonal manipulation or whatever, it all boils down to the same thing. Energy needs will cause your body to go after body fat, as long as your dietary fat does not supply all this energy need. Good luck on whatever methods you choose. It seems to be a concern of many. You'll figure it out, I'm sure. 
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| Kim |
So Dean, you are saying keep the fat in the higher percentage, but lower the calories overall?
Kim |
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| Sol |
Nicola - thanks for the link to the Eades blog post. I read the post and all of the comments and find the information very helpful.
Bingo. I didn't realize this. What I also didn't realize is that, if one lowers calories for a while or does extra exercise to create a calorie deficit, and loses weight, one can then go back to eating more calories and not regain the lost weight. WOW!  I'm up for that experiment when I return from my trip.
Dean - I do Olympic-style weight lifting. I don't know that I'm super strong but I'm stronger than I look. In this style of lifting you workout the whole body. The legs drive the lifts, but the arms and other muscles contribute to the effort. This is very different than body building that isolates muscles. I don't have a judgment against bodybuilding. It's just not what I'm wanting to do. |
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| Dean |
Kim, That is what makes me feel best. Of course, if I don't IF or exercise, it gets hard to create that caloric deficit. BTDT many times. Of course, the more one weighs, the higher their calorie needs are. It's that last bit of fat that is the hardest to lose. Your body will try to hold onto the last bit of fat by slowing down your metabolism. The whole metabolic/calorie thing is extremely biochemically complex, but, it is usually easiest to understand if approached from a calories in/out perspective. Metabolic rate must be considered, of course, and, this is obviously unique to each individual. On VLC/ZC, one could simply keep track of what is going on with calorie amounts by using FitDay and a body fat scale. They could find out what their individual metabolic rate is, using this "black box" approach. In other words, how many calories they need to lose one pound of body fat. On VLC, there should not be any gains, other than minor fluctuations, of course. When you track what is going on, you can figure out for yourself how many calories to consume to lose. That is what Eades suggests in that thread. Makes perfect sense to me. It is usually best to not take calories any lower than you need to, in order to lose at a constant pace, while still maintaining a good amount of food intake. You need the nutrients, especially from animal fat. It does no good to get impatient with weight loss. IMO, the reason people find weight loss difficult is because they expect too much. The ones who are the most successful are those who are patient and diligent AND figure out what they can handle with what foods to eat. You have to figure out what foods to add into your diet to keep you physically and mentally healthy, while remaining as carnivorous as possible, keeping animal fat ratios at an adequate amount. I would never go below 60% on the ratios, and, the higher you can keep them the better. It's not for the faint of heart, this weight loss business. There is no magic bullet or instant Kool-Aid. If there was, nobody would have the problem, right? So, just stay strong and figure out what you need to do it. Be realistic with your needs. That was supposed to be the reason for those Contests; so people could figure out what they needed, by experimentation. I'm not sure everyone got it, though.  Oh, well. One can only try... and keep trying. 
HTH
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| Dean |
Sol, I've heard of your approach to overall strength training, and have always thought it made a lot of sense. Seems a lot more natural to me. I'm more into internal health than trying to come up with a certain appearance. That's just my perspective on it. Focusing on looks is fine up to a point, but, there is so much more to good health, as most people discover. Thanks for your post about this. I often forget about this whole strength thing. I have seen people in the park, who did not look strong at all, doing mega amounts of pullups. Amazing how difficult it is to ascertain real strength. |
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| Heather |
This is exactly my experience. -No weight gain or loss with zero carb and unlimited calories. -Weight loss (usually quite fast) with a calorie deficit and zero carb. |
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| Jessica |
I'm the same as Heather. I just read the link to the Eades post on calories and carbs. Interesting he suggests an all-meat diet for his patients who aren't losing. But also states that if they don't, they need to count calories.
Cause, there are people out there (my husband included) who can eat two pounds of steak in a sitting.
Jessica |
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| Sol |
I just posted this comment to Dr. Eades' blog. Can any of you give some advice based on your experience?
Thanks, Sol =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~ Hello Dr. Eades, I'm one of those people who eats zero carbs, can eat all I want, and I'm not gaining or losing body fat. So, I'm intrigued with the idea of creating a calorie deficit for a while until I lose some body fat then going back to eating what I want -- still zero or very low carb. My question is, what's a good strategy for approaching the body fat loss? I'm 5'5", 162 pounds, and I've been measured at slightly under 18% bodyfat using skin calipers. I work out at the gym and don't eat cheese or nuts but I may be consuming too much butter, animal fat, or other calorie dense foods. Let's say, for example, that 1600 calories will maintain my current weight given my current diet and activity level but that I'm consuming 2000 calories and therefore not burning fat. How might I approach fat loss? Should I go down to 1600 calories per day, add 350 calories a day of exercise to my life, and expect to lose a pound of fat in 10 days? Do I do this for a month and lose 3 pounds of fat? What permutation of calories, exercise, period of time do you recommend? I also want to preserve lean mass while I'm creating a calorie deficit. At what calorie deficit does my body start going into starvation and sabotage the fat burning? Thanks. |
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| Nicola |
I ment your "new" diet (June challenge); "I will, but only on/with..." - you were doing so well while under the learning pressure in keeping your diet clean and simple (paleo). After reading that you don't understand me I went swimming; this helps me get away from human words - activity like swimming draws my brain to understanding my self and what life may be? |
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| Dean |
Nicola, thanks for the clarification.
Simple my diet is. Perhaps it was getting too simple for my taste. The only reason for the "I will, but only on/with..." is to make sure I limit my consumption of certain "toxic treats". I am only doing that so I can add things back in, yet not go overboard with certain things, like dairy for instance. A certain amount seems to be fine, but, anymore than that and I end up with problems. It's a really good method to help me limit the amounts of certain things. Too many times in the past, I would go down a slippery slope and end up overconsuming things (like cheese, for instance). It is also a method to gradually reduce non-animal foods. I've been using that method for quite awhile, and, it has been working. When I totally eliminated things over the last few months, I was able to see just what it was that I missed the most. Since adding a few things back into my diet, I'm much more content with things. In other words, over the long haul, there is a method to my madness. 
Oh, and I totally agree with you about it being psychological. It's acculturation, pure and simple. No way around it. I have no illusions about why I eat what I eat. I don't need a lot of this food for my body, but, for my head. At least for now. How you and others eat nothing but raw animals and water is way beyond me. I was moving in that direction, and, it was getting too boring, I think. I envy anyone who can stick to just raw animal food and water, believe me. I'm not sure I could do it, though. Not now, anyway. Maybe someday. Maybe over a really long period of time I will gradually get there. Right now, don't think I really want to, though. Right now, I only eat once a day. Love it. I do no snacking or grazing on anything. I love not having to mess with food more than once a day. Some days, I do have a couple cups of coffee and cream in the early part of the day. Aside from that, I only eat once in the evenings. Simple. That one evening meal is nice, and I want it to be. As I said, over time, I may end up slowly giving up everything but raw meat. Right now, I've given up so much that I risk going back to SAD eating. Don't wanna set myself up for that. Actually, I have been slowly giving up all sorts of things over the last few years. Anyway, I'm fine with it. Blame it on Mina. She posted all those recipes. J/K, Mina. Love the recipes. Thanks for posting those.
Nicola, I totally understand what you are saying, and where you are coming from. I really appreciate you and the other Bus members who are into true paleo eating. You help the rest of us put all of this into perspective. Modern, acculturated carnivores is what we all are. Many in the modern world are in denial about that, or have been brainwashed, by the powers that be, to think the modern foods are "normal" for humans. But, we know that is not true. Just like we know that a raw meat diet is much better to feed to our cats. Taking the red pill, drinking the Kool-Aid, and looking through the looking glass from the other side is what the Bus is all about. But, tumbling down the rabbit hole can be quite the trip, huh?
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| Heather L |
This is my experience as well.
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| steve198329 |
Sol, just out of curiosity, what would you say is the average percentage of fat you are currently eating each day. Also, about how many grams of protein are you eating per day. Maybe you are eating too much protein and it is turning to glucose. I have read this somewhere and don''t know if it is true but it is something to think about | ||||||
| Sol |
Steve,
I'm on travel now, in Asia. When I return - in 9 days - I'll start tracking protein/fat/calories/exercise and I'll post data for you and others. Sol |
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| Kristelle |
Where in Asia?? Have fun!!!! 
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| Sol |
Kristelle,
I'm in Korea - Seoul for another few days, then in the countryside for a few days. I'm in a carb-loading phase. I'm fine with that since I've done virtually zero carbs for two months and I'm curious to see how long it'll take to burn off the fat I pick up here.
Speaking of fat, I'm amazed at how skinny most Koreans are, regardless of age. They eat tons of rice and less than 10% of them are at all overweight. I have yet to see an obese Korean. I'm curious as to what their secret is. They're omnivores and not carnivores. Genetics? Regardless of what I hear about carnivore being a natural diet, these people, and I would guess other Asians too, don't get fat with their diet. It is quite striking to see such uniformly skinny people. Even the ones who are "fat" are nothing like fat Americans. At 18% body fat I'm fatter than almost all Koreans. In my case, I suspect that years of junk food has really messed with my digestion mechanism. Thoughts? |
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| Kristelle |
Don't they also eat alot of meat and fat? | ||||||
| Dean |
Sol,
It's NOT genetics. It's calories in/calories out. Period. I would wager any amount on the fact that these people don't eat all the junk many Americans eat, and they don't eat near the calories. Now, skinny as they are, are they truly healthy? That is the real question. While being overweight is not healthy, being at the right weight is not necessarily healthy. I know many vegans that are very skinny. Vegans as a rule are skinny. But, are they healthy? Many vegans I know are sick all winter long, and sometimes in the summer. I never get sick. Why is that? Carnivore eating is not about weight control. It's about optimal health, by eating what our genes evolved to eat. People don't get overweight cuz they eat carbs. They get overweight cuz they overeat carbs. While you can overeat calories on a zero carb diet and not gain body fat, you can't do the same thing while eating carbs. And, of course, carbs are SO easy to overeat, especially the super refined crap that is so prevalent in America. |
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| Sol |
Kristelle - the Koreans are eating more meat these days as they are becoming more affluent. They don't lots of fat.
Dean - I want to have my "cake" (carnivorous, of course) and to eat it too. You make a great point about weight and health. I virtually never get sick. I get the flu about once every 7 or 8 years, and almost never get colds. I know my body doesn't handle fiber well and I have no desire to overwork my pancreas. That's why I'm carnivore. I also want to be able to eat all the meat I want and drop body fat to 13% without effort. So, I guess I'm projecting my desire to be lean on the Koreans. And, in truth, they are more skinny than lean. I guess a part of me got a little disillusioned with the Atkins message that you can eat all you want as long as its zero carbs and you'll be lean. Now that I know it's not true I'm ready to do the work. When I return I'm going to focus on IF/calorie restriction/extra exercise to drop body fat. I want to show off the nice muscle I've built lifting weights.
But, there's more than calories in/out going on here. There's metabolic advantage, right, for those of us who eat excess calories on a zero-carb diet? I can believe that Koreans don't overeat. Sol |
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| Dean |
No, there is really nothing more going on than calories in/calories out.
Calories is a measurement of heat. That's all. Calories are not a "thing" or a "substance". Just like a kilometre is not a "thing", it's just a unit of measurement. Food has potential energy. Through various metabolic pathways, that food will get broken down into molecules that will be used as substrates for energy (ATP) production. It's just biochemical reactions (steps) to make molecules of ATP, which are themselves potential energy. When this ATP is "burned", via various metabolic pathways, the measurement of the heat that is generated is what calories are all about. On a high fat, VLC/ZC diet, there is something going on that helps to burn up excess ATP, that is unlike what happens on a high carb diet. That something is futile cycles. So, even though the "calories in" are great, the "calories out" are used up and not stored as body fat. The metabolic advantage of a high fat, VLC/ZC diet is futile cycles. If you are not familiar with this concept, I try to explain it in this thread. http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about611.html Any questions, please post them in this thread, and I will try to explain further.
BTW, the quickest way to lose weight is NOT a LC diet, it's a vegan diet. Well, maybe starvation would be quicker. I would NEVER advise anyone to adopt either WOE, though.
Oh, and if you want your "cake"... try the hog cake.
http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about623.html
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| Sol |
Dean,
What you say makes lots of sense. Some 8 or 9 years ago I was 9% body fat. I was doing the Zone diet which was also a low calorie diet, and I was doing 40 minutes of hard cardio five days a week. So, I was probably consuming only 1500 calories per day and burning off a few hundred of those with the cardio. It's no wonder I got lean. Now, I'm ready to reexperience leanness with much less carb than the Zone dictates. I'm off to breakfast. Yes, it's breakfast time in the Orient. Sol |
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| ~mina~ |
IMO it's also the quickest way to iron and B vitamin deficiency (esp if you havent built up stores before becoming vegan). Elevated homocysteine levels are associated with heart disease, stroke, and early death. Numerous studies have looked at homocysteine in vegans and indicated that if vegans are not taking vitamin B12, they probably have high homocysteine levels. Poorly planned vegan diets can also lead to neudegenerative disease. The only healthy looking vegan Ive seen is Alicia Silverstone - and I believe she is either lying or airbrushed
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| Nicola |
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmik...ty/another-china-study/#more-1265 Nicola |
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| Trem |
I think the name of the game is calories in/calories out. I've gained weight and lost weight on zero-carb directly relating to how much I'm eating. 60/40 seems to be my comfort zone. However, I really don't think that weight is very important. What I do like about zero-carb is that I think optimum body composition for a person's genetics is reached. | ||||||
| jeff |
I think so too. I also think that the healthiest body may not necessarily look the way we want it to, which is what you were probably hinting at.
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| jem51 |
hello everyone, i missed you all. i just dropped in for a minute since i still don't have my own comp access......anyway, i'm just wondering, sol, if you are in too big of a hurry. maybe it'll take a bit longer, especially since you are sooooo close. i think of ray audette because he was downright wirey and very strong. yes, i know, he does eat some vegetation but often did just meat (don't know what he does now). but he ate large quantities of meat. i can't remember how long it took him but but even if it was overnight....well what i'm saying is; give it a bit more time. | ||||||
| Trem |
Yup. Maybe we're geared toward survival and having some extra weight is good? Interesting, this says that a BMI between 25-30 has the lowest all cause mortality. http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspo...tting%20fat%20%283%29%20is%20good |
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| Dean |
Hey, jem! So good to see ya around!
Hope you get your computer access straightened out. So nice to hear from you.
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| jeff |
Very interesting.....thanks, Trem. This may be why those last few "vanity" pounds are so hard for some to get rid of. We might acutally be healthier with what appears to be a few extra pounds. |
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