Tina's MAM Experiment

Manaloa · Tina's MAM Experiment

OK, I'm back, duh duh duhnnnnnnnnnnn. LOL

I'm going to try this again. I have been tweaking some of my supplements since I had a feeling that I might be short in some areas. (dry eyes, skin and such) So I don't know if it's the extra magnesium, vitamin D, or the dessicated liver that I've added, but my nose bleeds and problems with dairy seem to have subsided. I don't know why, and that wasn't the goal I was going for, but I'm going to run with it.

So I'm going to go for a lot of cals, but keep my protein fairly moderate. The only carbs I'm planning for are going to be from eggs and cream. I'm also going to try to get down some butter tabs during the day, I don't think I could manage a stick at a time. Shock

But boy, am I going to try. LOL

I'm going to start in the morning.

Manaloa

Oh, yeah, and since this is my experiment, I'm going to continue doing my exercise program that I just started and AC can just kiss my big asian butt.
LOL

Manaloa

Monday
Starting Weight: 209.5

Boy, eggs sure do soak up a lot of butter. I was able to get almost the whole 3 tbsp of butter I cooked it in to soak up.

jeff

Tina, glad you got those problems cleared up. That's great. Good luck with the experiment.

Vesna

Hooray, more MAM experiments going! How long do you plan to run it?

Manaloa

As long as I can stand it. LOL

I'd like to see it through the end of the month at the very least. We'll see though, I wasn't able to down any butter tabs today. Damn acculturation. I just wanted to gag on them. I know I'm just overthinking it, because my parents still joke that when I was a baby I would eat whole sticks of butter like a candy bar.

Heather

I always loved the taste of butter even when I was very young but it seemed to be forbidden fruit, banned everywhere except my Grandparent's house.

Manaloa

Yesterday food:
eggs, egg yolks, butter, cream, coffee, diet soda, ham & egg bake w/a little bit of cheese, onions & green peppers in it. Oh, and dessicated liver tabs.

Calories: 3283
Carbs: 15 (2%)
Fat: 319 (92.7%)
Protein:41 (5.3%)

Had a little trouble in the morning over breakfast with digesting the fat, due to lack of a gallbladder. The rest of the day I just grazed constantly on cream and coffee or cream in the diet soda until supper, and that seemed to help. We'll see how today goes. My carbs and protein seem a little low but that's discounting probably some of each from the cream as I intaked into www.sparkpeople.com exactly what was on the carton.

Jeff, did you find while doing this that butter tasted sweet to you? Or had it always? Anybody, anybody?? I don't remember using a good deal of butter before this and I can really taste it in the eggs. Of course, eggs are like a blank canvas just waiting for any infusion of flavors. It seems since starting this WOE that I've noticed that high fat dairy has had a "sweetish" taste to me.

Anyways, I could taste the ketones on my breath yesterday, which hasn't happened in a while, a looooong while. In fact, the last time I remember tasting them was when I was losing all that weight in the beginning when I first switched over to this WOE. I'm now wondering if I've been in semi-rabbit starvation with my fat averaging around 70% of my calories lately. Which sounds crazy writing that out, but now I'm wondering if that was what was stalling my weight loss, excess protein and insufficient fat.

So I'm going to continue to try and keep this up. That's a lot of cream in a day. It'd be easier to pop butter tabs but I think I'm going to have to work myself up to that.

Tuesday weight: 206

Vesna

We use unsalted butter. It tastes sweet to me.

Since you're using so much butter, I wonder, for added variety and fun, do you ever use ghee? That's pure butterfat with the water and milk solids removed. I just posted how to make it on my blog:

http://vesnavuynovich.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-to-make-ghee.html

It's delicious and great for cooking! It doesn't need refrigeration -- you can keep it out by the stove. Very convenient.

Manaloa

I use unsalted butter too. I haven't tried making ghee yet, which is odd, because making tallow is harder and yet I tried that first. LOL

I'm going to try that tonight.

I did ok today. Carbs were higher than I like, and I'll probably have another fat shake when I get home tonight, so I'll put my totals in for today in the morning.

It's actually not too bad this time around with the extra calories. I think it really helps to limit the protein doing it though. Before I got sooooo full Puke

But I was consuming a lot more protein than I am now.

I think that tomorrow I'm going to shoot for around 70 grams of protein. Yesterday was a bit low and today was a bit high, so I'm hoping to get somewhere in the middle tomorrow.

Manaloa

Well, I just checked my old experiment and I think I'm going to try for a couple of the recipes to get my fat up without having to consume butter tabs. Bonkers

The first was an eggy cream drink and the other was the cream cheese deserty thing. Hopefully that'll help.

jeff

Manaloa

A cup of cream & 3 yolks??? Are you able to get any coffee in your cup?? LOL

Well I didn't realize that I was almost out of cream cheese when I went to the grocery store last night, so I didn't pick any up. so my deserty thing is now a jell-o cream thing. Pretty tasty still though, just fluffier, less cheesecake-like.

Wednesday weight:
206 lbs (-0 lbs)
(I'm guessing due to the amount of protein & carbs yesterday)

Yesterday food:
eggs, egg yolks, butter, cream, coffee, diet soda, sopressata, pancetta (OMG, those are sooo good), fried chicken thighs (bad Tina), jello cream & dessicated liver tabs.

Calories: 3625
Carbs: 38 (4.6%)
Fat: 306 (82%)
Protein:113 (13.5%)

Well, this morning I'm doing an eggy drink:
1 yolk
1tbsp butter
1 tbsp cream
cup of coffee
I'd forgotten that the taste of butter kind of gets lost in the coffee so it's not overwhelming. So it might be easier to add butter than I expected. I'll probably have a few cups this morning. I'm trying to keep my protein fairly low this morning because I know that I'm going to lunch with some friends and while I'll eat just meat, I probably won't be able to add extra fat to the meal.

Lately I've been looking at that Optimal Diet site with Dr. Jan Kwasniewski and checking out what they have to say. Does anyone know any more about it?

Manaloa · Side effects

Oh, yeah, I forgot to post about the side effect that started last night and has continued to this morning.

I'm bouncing off the walls with energy! OMG, just sitting on the computer is making me feel a little crazy sitting still. I feel like running all over the place!! I almost can't stand it. I feel warmer, especially my hands and feet, but my basal temp has gone done the last two days, although that might be because I still have a sinus cold that I'm getting over and I think I slept with my mouth open.

BOING BOING BOING BOING

OK I gotta go run or something, before I freak out. LOL

Red

jeff

Red

I think I just had a mini orgasm just hearing about it.

Yep, it's official, I miss dairy. BIG TIME. Sad

jeff

Heather L

I notice that cream tastes sweeter, as well as many other things. I had just cream(2T) in my coffee and it tasted like I had added sugar to it. I have noticed the warm sensations with the higher fat percentages, and I am not even upping my calories. I can imagine that I would experience even more of it if I did up my calories.

I will be interested in watching your experiment.

jeff

Yes, since cutting out sugar and such, anything with even a hint of swetness to it tates sweet. And anything that is truly sweet tastes disgustingly sweet.

Manaloa

jeff

Vesna

Jeff, what do you do with the whites? Why don't you put them in the drink, because too much protein?

jeff

Vesna

OK, I am enjoying one of these now. One egg, 1/2 cup cream. And grated in a sprinkle of nutmeg.

I separated the egg and beat the white to soft peaks. I have one of those crank-handle rotary mixers that's super-fast, much faster than my KitchenAid or my electric hand mixer -- beats a white in way less than a minute.

Then I mixed the cream with the yolk. They got a little frothy, but not much. The cream would doubtless whip up more if I beat it before adding the yolk. An experiment for next time.

Then I folded in the white. It makes about 1.5 coffee mugs worth of thick, creamy, tasty, goodness. Mmmm!

jeff

Oh yummy. I like what you did with the egg white.

Vesna

485 easy calories!

Manaloa

Thursday Weight: 206 lbs (-0 lbs)

Yesterday food:
egg yolks, butter, cream, coffee, diet soda, ground beef, pork shoulder roast, jello cream & dessicated liver tabs.

Calories: 3084
Carbs: 2 (.3%)
Fat: 279 (88.4%)
Protein:80 (11.3%)

Today, I've decided my fat of choice will be butter vs. cream. I'm wondering about the incidental carbs in the cream might be stalling me with the amounts I'm consuming. So my goal for today is to consume a stick of butter. LOL

(only on the bus would this statement not be met with shock and disbelief, but with nods of understanding)

Red

Tina, one of my favourite, easy ways to have obscene amounts of butter is to mix two egg yolks (or 1 whole egg if you like it extra frothy) with 2 or 3 tablespoons of cold water and a teaspoon or two of instant decaf in a blender (I love Taster's Choice - it doesn't taste like instant, at all), then plop in a stick of unsalted butter. Turn it on, then pour freshly boiled water through the little feed hole at the top until frothy, creamy and smooth. I use about 1-1/2 cups of boiling water. You'll need a very large mug!

Yum! Like the most delicious buttery/creamy latte!

Manaloa

Thanks for the suggestion, Red. Today I've been doing 3 tbsp butter, 1 tbsp cream in a cup of coffee. I remember trying this a few months ago and I remember it tasting overwhelmingly butterly and I couldn't stomach it. Today though, it was yummmmmmy. I've gotten down four cups of that so far and I just brewed another 1/2 a pot of coffee for my other two mugs for the day. Tomorrow I might try that. I'm really not very hungry in the mornings, but if I didn't eat, I wouldn't get my calories up for the challenge. Maybe with the yolks I can get some protein in without having to eat. I am finding that it's easier to drink my calories than eat them.

Vesna

Tina, are you aiming for a specific calorie total per day? Macro ratios?

How would you describe what it is you're testing for?

Red, that's some coffee drink you've got going there! We should try to come up with the name it would be called if they sold it at Starbucks. How about ... hmmm ... Buttercino? Frappafatto? Come on, folks, there's got to be a perfect Starbucks name if we put on our thinking caps!

Manaloa

Manaloa

OK, so even though I was going for about 70ish grams of protein for this experiment, I still wanted to make sure I wasn't losing any muscle, so I kept reading what was out there. I have to say that, for instance, today I only got about 42 grams of protein. And yet I'm completely full, but not uncomfortably so. I actually feel really good. And I can still taste the ketones on my breath, which I wasn't getting with 80% fat.

So anyways, I thought I'd reread some reliable low-carb sources, and of course I started with Dr. Eades, and moved on to the 2nd Opinion site. I know that Dr. Eades recommends getting a certain amount of protein and having your body work to make glucose from from protein in gluconeogenesis. But he had mentioned in one of his posts that we also break down dietary fat for the glycerin to make glucose too, just not as much as you make with protein.

OK, so it seems to me that our bodies preferentially make glucose first from carbs, then from proteins/muscle, and lastly from dietary/body fat. So I'm checking out the 2nd Opinions site here:
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fat-not-protein.html

And picked out this paragraph:

Dean

Whoa, Tina, I'm impressed! Yup

You are really getting into this stuff with a vigor! Good for you! Cool

Remember, futile cycles are just happening in your mitochondria to use up excess ATP that was created with all the extra fatty acids you and Red and jeff consumed. It is in the mitochondria that FFAs are used to create ATP (your body's energy source). It is in there that, on a high fat diet, your excess ATP will get used up pumping hydrogen ions across the inner membrane. This has nothing to do with glucose.

But, hey, you are spot on about your body getting more efficient at using substrates, etc. That is what happens. The more you lower your carbs, the more your body will use ketones wherever it can. Your blood cells will need the glucose, but other cells can use ketones.

And, yes, you are bouncing off the walls cuz you have tons of energy from FFAs, and excess energy that is futile cycling inside your cells. Plus, you don't have blood sugar swings which will make you feel drained as all the glucose gets sucked out of your blood by high insulin levels. So, yah, it feels great, doesn't it. Wink

And, when your brain starts runnin' on ketones... wow, I know just how you feel. Cool

You are correct about the sedentary person not needing as much protein to repair muscles that are not getting broken down. The body needs protein for a lot of things, and the amino acid pool is constantly being recycled for all sorts of uses, but the needs are not so great that we need to eat tons of protein. Our ancestors knew about energy, and they knew to always hunt the fattest game, often discarding the lean when game was plenty. You are right on in you analysis. Good for you. Our ancestors knew what it was like to get too much protein. They knew how sick they'd get. Our proper diet is about high animal fat. Think about it. It all started out with us cracking open the bones and skulls and eating tons of fat from the insides of these cat kill carcasses. It's evolutionarily correct. Wink

BTW, Tina, thanks so much for doing this experiment. You are such an inspiration! Trail blazing! You are also getting quite sophisticated in your understanding of all this. WTG, Tina!

Sunny

jeff

Nice work Tina. Some great insights.

Manaloa

OK, Part 2

So now let's say this same person eats no carbs, and isn't losing weight with a really high fat, lower protein diet. Why not?

The same woman is having 50 grams of protein and 325 grams of fat per day. So she's not consuming any excess protein, so no conversion through gluconeogenesis. But where is the glucose coming from. If we didn't get glucose from somewhere then we'd fall over dead, right. So it's got to come from fat, dietary or stored. (and of course, here we're assuming we need that much protein)

So she needs about 130 grams of glucose, right. Well, then right there we know that the she must be converting more than 20% of the fat, because 20% = only 65 grams of glucose. So she must be converting more than that to survive, probably twice that amount. Now if she is metabolizing twice that amount to get glucose, just think of how much free fatty acids that have to unbond with the glycerol to make the glucose. Good grief, it's no wonder I'm bouncing off the walls. When I wasn't with a higher protein intake.

OK, so because I'm getting all this extra energy from the unbonding of the dietary fat, my body does not need to tap the stored fat for glucose or extra energy, right. No tapping of stored fat = no weight loss. So the million dollar question is what is the ideal amount of dietary fat/protein to intake to achieve loss of stored fat, while remaining full.

My theory is that we need to keep the protein to the minimum or only slightly higher if weight lifting so that we're not wasting the amount of fat that we can convert to glucose. And then enough fat to keep our energy up through the conversation of fat to glucose, but not so much dietary fat that it doesn't tap the stored fat. Of course, this will vary from person to person based not on weight but lean body mass.

Now I'm wondering if this is why we all feel "full" all the time on this diet. Besides that whole insulin deal causing hunger. But also the whole IF deal and it not being difficult to do once we adapt to this WOE. Why is that? Is it because our bodies become adapted and are still "in the groove" of breaking down dietary/stored fat to produce glucose as a preferred method, that going a whole day without food doesn't cause distress because it is getting it from the stored/dietary fat now as a normal response. Well, then that would explain why some people who are stalled start losing weight when they do an every other day IF, where they eat every other day. And on their eating days they consume a "normal" amount of food. Because on their "normal amount of food" they are probably eating about twice the protein they actually need and not quite twice the fat, so they tap their stored fat finally and break the stall to lose their weight.

OK, so now if someone tries this and says it's not enough food to keep them full while still achieving weight loss. Then instead of cutting their calories even more maybe then they need to up their lean body mass, so they can consume more calories.

Manaloa

Thursday Weight: 206 lbs (-0 lbs)

Yesterday food:
egg yolks, (lots of)butter, cream, coffee, diet soda, pancetta, sausage & dessicated liver tabs.

Calories: 2836
Carbs: 6 (.9%)
Fat: 289 (91.9%)
Protein: 51 (7.2%)

jem51

wow, tina. i have to admire all the thought you are putting into this. barry groves is the person who made me take a look at the protein issue and i believe he and eades are right. there are so many peops that stall on lc and i alway recommend they look at protein. mostly they've started cutting calories and that's usually from fat. big mistake. i rarely think of changing my diet now that i discovered this. my weight rarely changes. although, i have to admit, i am still tempted to do expirements like the ones on this board. but if they meant lowering the fat, i would just laugh.

Red

I wonder if you're not losing any weight because of the salt and MSG, tina? The pancetta and sausage are very high in both.

And I'm a big supporter of protein, control, btw - I think you're on the right track! Yup

Heather L

Ok, so here is what I am wondering: After stoking the fires( so to speak) with all the extra calories and fat , will it enhance your weight loss when you go back to smaller calorie amounts.?? The same thing as hitting the ground running. It might be interesting to see if this happens.

Dean

Red

It would be an interesting experiment to try having abundant calories, zero-carb and low protein (maybe 'just' the RDA, which I believe, for women is 48 g per day) to see if one is able to lose fat while consuming excess calories. Hmmm...

Manaloa

Red, there's no MSG in the pancetta & sopressta that I bought, but there was quite a bit of sodium. I'm still doing ok today on sodium I'll try and keep it under 1000mg today.

Red

Trust me there's MSG. There's natural MSG in all processed/cured/dried meats, called free glutamates, even if they don't add any actual monosodium glutamate.

Manaloa

oh, well alrighty then. I'm all out of it anyways, so it won't be hard avoiding it.

Red

Manaloa

Well, it's possible that it is. I don't think I've gone one day this week yet without processed meat. I have a feeling that next week is an eggy week anyways. Grin

I've got about three dozen eggs in my fridge so I'll be all set.

Tomorrow I have a baby shower to go to. And there's going to be food. My mom made som tom for me, and I'm hoping beef salad too. I'm going to try to not pig out on the som tom, though it'll be hard. I love that stuff.

Would it be completely awful to have an off day during the experiment, do you think?

Manaloa

Saturday Weight: 206 lbs (-0 lbs)

Yesterday food:
egg yolks, (lots of)butter, cream, coffee, diet soda, (only 2)Old Wisconsin Beef Sticks & dessicated liver tabs.

Calories: 2395
Carbs: 6 (1%)
Fat: 243 (91.8%)
Protein: 43 (7.2%)

Well, my ratios look about the same as yesterday, but I just couldn't eat or drink any more last night, so I couldn't get my calories any higher. No weight change, but I'm now wondering if I'm not the best subject for this diet. I know I have a sluggish thyroid because of temping for the last year or so. And I'm always temping low. Although for the last couple of days, even though my temp's been normal (low) I've felt very warm. I even kicked the covers off in the middle of the night. (Something I never do) I'm going to continue this as long as I can, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to get so high on the calories, just because I'm so full all of the time.

jem51

tina, don't give up just yet. this way of eating is what healed my sluggish thyroid. the fact that you have eaten around 3k cal and not gained is pretty impressive. also, you may get a sudden drop in weight....like vesna had today. sounds like the diet itself is good for you and maybe you will decide that the amt is too much. but i think it is too early to make that decision (of course, it is up to you). in that case, at least you have made a change in your diet and feel terrific!! then you will just have to tweak a little bit. you are doing a fabulous job!!

jeff

Dean

Heather L

Manaloa-- Since I started higher fat percentages, I get really warm, and notice it even more at night. I'll wake up with all the covers kicked off, and that is just not normal for me. I am not even going for extra calories, so it is probably just from going with the high fat percentage.

I know for sure that it isn't hot flashes, I am nowhere near that. LOL ---It certainly makes me sympathize with those who do get hot flashes.

Dean

I experience this as well, and so does my gf, who is eating like me now. With all the animal fat that causes all that futile cycling, it is no wonder we heat up so much. Well, that's one of the reasons. Devil

But, seriously, when all that extra ATP is being used (broken down) inside the mitochondria of our cells (to move all those hydrogen ions across the inner membrane) there is tons of energy being released in the form of heat. That's why one gets so hot on this WOE. Wonderful way to be in the winter time, huh? I never get chilled, but all the carb eaters around me are always saying how cold they are. Roll Eyes

Manaloa

Well I gained 3 lbs after yesterday.

Saturday Weight: 209 lbs (+3)

Yesterday food:
egg yolks, butter, cream, coffee, diet soda, ground pork, dried beef, som tom, sticky rice, 1 meatball, a couple pieces of cheddar on a couple of crackers, 1 slice of pizza & dessicated liver tabs. (Boy, I suppose when I fall off the wagon, I fall hard)

Calories: 2398
Carbs: 114 (18.9%)
Fat: 198 (67.9%)
Protein: 79 (13.2%)

Today I'm going to just eat until I'm full (avoiding carbs, of course), keeping my fat very high, to drop the carb weight, then I'll get back on the experiment tomorrow.

jeff

Manaloa

Som tom is always worth it. The cheese and crackers not so much, but it was literally a couple of pieces. The slice of pizza gave me a tummy ache, so if I had do-overs I definitely wouldn't have eaten it.

jeff

Manaloa

Som tom is a traditional Thai dish involving shredded green papaya, fish sauce, lime juice, 1 small crushed tomato, & hot pepper. You beat this with a mallet to release the juices from the tomato & green papaya, a little salt to taste usually not any need for it though with the fish sauce. Personally I'd say it's an acquired taste just because of the fish sauce. I grew up on it and it's one of the few dishes that I miss. I never turn it down when my mom makes it. You're supposed to eat it with sticky rice, but I've been eating it with sticky rice or meat.

jeff

Thanks Tina.

Manaloa

OK, so I've got a question. When I used to eat carbs regularly, I could eat let's just say cheese crackers (because I actually remember doing this) and I could eat cups and cups at once worth of this and not feel "full" and have an urge to eat even more food. I know this has something to do with leptin and carbs interfering with your body recognizing that it's there.

Now here I'm doing this experiment with the high fat. This morning I haven't eaten anything yet. But I've had three cups of coffee with 1 tbsp cream & 2 tbsp butter in each cup. It adds up to about 770 calories of basically fat. I don't feel really full though, not hungry either, but not full. I kind of feel like when I'm IFing. If food is in front of me I could eat, but I don't really have to.

The other morning when I had this drink but I added an egg yolk to each cup. It was only about 6 grams of protein total, but I felt really full. And I couldn't put another thing in my mouth. So what's going on here? How can only 6 grams of protein make me feel that full?

Another thing is the last few days I've had heartburn when I eat around 20 grams of protein at once. And my "elimination" is runny right after like when I eat high protein, low fat (i.e. rabbit starvation), like chicken with no skin or any other fat to it. But that doesn't make sense, because I'm consuming a lot of fat in the same meal with the protein. So why would this happen?

But when I eat high fat without protein during the day, there's no heartburn and I'm not eliminating much and when I do it's almost too firm. As long as I don't have very much protein, then I don't get "full" too. So I could drink several cups of the butter coffee and only feel as full as if I'd drunk that amount of water.

Now, keep in mind, during my low fat days I had to get my gallbladder taken out, but this has been about 5 years since then. The reason I'm bringing this up is that I would expect that if I wasn't digesting large amounts of fat because of the lack of gallbladder, then my "elimination" would be switched and I would be having issues during high fat consumption and not during protein consumption. So what's going on here. Seriously, the way I feel right now, it feels better to eat a lot of fat and only very little protein. But then one worries about the whole losing muscle mass issue.

Help!

Vesna

Tina, I have a theory about the "feeling full" issue. I have also been inclined to eat less and less as my experiment continues.

I think that because we've cut insulin out of the picture close to as much as is physiologically possible, our fat cells are free to release stored fat. Our bodies are subsequently working hard to clear it out of our systems. So we're burning it up for energy, among whatever else we're doing with it. Eating would therefore be less necessary, and perhaps even getting in the way. So our appetites are saying, "Please, no thanks, I couldn't eat another bite."

I can't quite figure out how a higher appetite for fat and a lower appetite for protein fits into that theory, though. That would seem counterintuitive, no?

Red

Tina, I also get uncomfortably full and sometimes bloated from too much protein. I think the 80% fat thing and also the idea of rabbit starvation, in a way, is more about the amount of protein one is consuming, rather than about the ratio or amount of fat, per se. The more fat one eats, the less room they have in their diet for protein, so that's why a high fat diet is so important. I do believe excess protein is not beneficial and is a strain on the body, but some just handle it better than others. I think it might have something to do with genetic difficulties with processing excess ammonia.

Manaloa

Red, so how low on protein do I get before I start getting concerned. Because I've only had about 22 grams of protein today and I feel really good. Of course, my fat is about 200 grams too. So that's helping the satiety issue.

Vesna

Red

Agreed. But meeting the RDA, long term, is probably what you should shoot for. Probably about 40-50 g a day. Spread it out, over smaller meals, if that helps. I think it's the big servings of protein at one time that really give us trouble. Like when I go fried-chicken-crazy and eat like 7 chicken thighs in a sitting and don't feel right for 2 days afterwards!

If you're little, too, you need less protein. I'm 5'4", so I think I should probably get about 48 or 50 g in a day.

Do try mini-meals and see if it makes you feel better.

Manaloa

Side Effects Noted:

My cellulite is looking less cottage cheesy and is smoothing out.

My skin, especially my face, looks really good. Like the new skin under a scab or a burn, that is really fresh and well, new, looking. No acne (not that I ever had much) And it's really soft and looks.... clearer? more translucent? Fine lines are less noticeable.

Dean

A person can actually live on 100% fat for quite awhile... not sure exactly how long. On a 0% fat diet, they would die a pretty miserable death. Carbs are absolutely unnecessary and keeping them at 0% (if that were possible) would be the healthiest way to go IMO. I agree with Red, that excess protein is not a good thing. That explains a lot why our hunter ancestors prized animal fat so much, and even discarded the lean in times of plenty. Yes, HIGH animal fat is where it's at. Cool

BTW, Tina, it took me a whole month of eating close to ZC to get my GI system back on track. The bacterial and cellular switch out can take awhile, but our bodies will eventually adjust. Not too sure how the missing gall bladder plays into that, though.

Dean

Manaloa

Dean, do you have a source on the living on fat?

So, is how about I continue the MAM experiment, but keep up the fat, and only when I actually can't satisfy my "hunger" with fat then try about an ounce of protein/an egg at a time until my "hunger" is satisfied? I did notice that around noon, I was feeling "hungry" even though I was still consuming my buttery coffee.

Well, I wouldn't call myself "little" with over 60lbs to lose. I would say short to medium height at 5'5ish"

I have been having mini-meals with about 15-20 grams of protein three times a day and in between trying to get the rest of the fat in. The meals are spread out through the day too. 6am, 12-1pm, 6pm.

Maybe I'll try a liquid diet and just drink buttery coffee, with the yolk in it all day.

steve198329 · reply

This is a great post Tina!!! I just found this post. After 0 carbing for over a year I felt like I was hypothyroid because I am having all the symptoms. Sucha as low sex drive , poor memory, dry skin, hair, and brittle nails. I have been trying to up my fat intake before I even read this post. I was eating super high protein like 40% and I am sure this is what caused my hypothyroid symptoms. I have been experimenting with higher fat but not diligently. I am going to start uping my fat intake to like 85-90% and I will let you know if my symptoms abate.

Check out my post on the other 0 carb forum:
http://activenocarber.myfreeforum...cause_hypothyroid__about2199.html

Manaloa

Wow, that's awesome Steve, maybe you should start your own challenge here?

jem51

yup. the brain and hormonal systems (esp thyroid) require fat. ever wonder why, among many other diseases, alzheimers and dementia are epidemic. seriously, don't wait. dive in!!

Dean

jem, that is SO TRUE! Carbs provide nothing to the body except a toxic effect. It will probably someday be discovered, if it has not already, that gluconeogenesis is the ONLY way we should be getting our glucose safely... probably tied into all sorts of necessary physiological functions. Protein is obviously necessary, and provides to that amino acid pool. It's already a proven fact that only animal foods provide the correct ratios of those aminos. Then, there is fat. So important in everything from our cell walls, to all sorts of hormones that run everything you can think of in our bodies, and obviously the best energy source there is. So, yes, HIGH animal fat IS where it's at. Cool

Tina, I'll try to find a source for that, but the first place I ever heard these things about macros was from a cardiologist who was and still is a carnivore. He swears by animal fat. Yup

BTW, non-animal fat is seen by our bodies as very foreign to our bodies and wreaks havoc to all sorts of processes. Atkins always said that, and it's true.

Sassy

Dean

Manaloa

OK, I can't squeeze another thing in my poor belly.

Today food:
(lots of) butter, cream, coffee, meatballs, brisket & dessicated liver tabs.

Calories: 3408
Carbs: 10 (1.2%)
Fat: 351 (93.4%) Wow

Protein: 46 (5.4%)

Butter is my new best friend. I think I've gone through a whole box in the last two days.

I'm wondering if I'm a little dehydrated, because I haven't been able to drink anything else since trying to get all that fat down. Usually drinking water has never been an issue for me. Tomorrow I'm going to shoot for 1 glass after each "meal". I have a hard time thinking of the tiny amounts of meat being an actual "meal".

Manaloa

OMG, I think I'm in ketosis. I feel so nauseous. I haven't felt this ill since I first started low carb. I've going to bed.
Puke

Sassy

I hope you feel better in the morning Manaloa!

Sassy

Manaloa

Monday Weight: 210 lbs

Which I'm blaming on the carbs in the meatball and sauce from yesterday. Yesterday I said I was going to just eat until I was full, but it didn't happen. I stuffed myself with fat. So today I'm not going to stuff myself.

Red

Sounds like you overdid it on the fat if you were feeling nauseated like that. It's happened to me, too!

jem51

tina, why not try drinking your water btw meals that way your digestion will not be hampered since water dilutes.....i don't drink anything til 1 1/2-2 hrs after eating. that way i don't feel bloated, etc. then i have my water handy.

Heather L

Tina- You could try drinking some water 30 minutes or so before a meal. This way it will be absorbed by the time the meal starts. I get a lot of fluids in during my workout...it drives up my thirst.

Kim

Red

Tina, I think I might be doing basically the same experiment you are. If you want to compare notes, let me know! Currently, I'm experiencing the hungries that can't satisfied today - not sure if that's because of the low-protein or what. I can't seem to strike a balance between too much protein (bloated and tired) and not enough (constantly hungry).

Manaloa

Definitely would like to compare notes, Red. It's kinda lonely going at this all alone. LOL

I've been thinking about trying 100 grams of fat, and then if I still feel hunger, 1 oz of meat or an egg at a time.

Red

Well, today, I've had 145 g fat and only 28 g protein and I just feel hungry, like I can't be filled up. That was just from ghee and egg drinks. I'm going to eat some pork belly soon, which will bring my protein up, but since it still has such a good ratio of fat, I think I won't be able to eat more than about 6 oz cooked weight. I am just dying for something with some substance to actually fill my stomach with.

Manaloa

HA! I was answering you in the other forum.

I usually do ok with around 25g of protein until mid-afternoon. After that I need another dose of around 15-20g to get through til the end of the night. Which isn't a problem since I'm consuming about twice as much fat as what you're doing now.

Manaloa

Well, guys I'm think I'm gonna flunk out of here. I think I'm just a bad candidate for this particular experiment. I might try again at some later date.

Manaloa

Wednesday Weight: 207.5 Bonkers

Yesterday food:
(1 cup)Packaged chicken salad, coffee, cream, butter, (~2oz)brisket with a 1/2 rim of fat on it, (1/3 cup)homemade guacamole, (1/2 cup)packaged nacho cheese & (1oz)tostito scoops & dessicated liver tabs, oh, and fat crispies from rendering.

Calories: 3657
Carbs: 50 (5.6%)
Fat: 350 (87.5%)
Protein: 62 (6.9%)

I don't get it.
I eat prepackaged chicken salad, guac & nacho cheese with tortilla chips and I drop the weight. The only other thing I did differently today was about half the coffee, no soda, no lunch (wasn't hungry) and lots of fat crispies from rendering. I'm guessing on the fat amount too. It's not like they have leftover rendered fat crisps on fitday. LOL

Anyways, it's been a while since I rendered any fat, I'd forgotten how yummy the crispies were. I think I'm going to pick up some more fat today and have some more.

jeff

A whoosh!! Weight fluctuations can be maddening at times. When i was actively losing I weighed myself only once per week. My weekly losses, and sometimes gains, were all over the place. I was very consistant with my eating, but some weeks i would lose one pound, then the next lose 3 pounds, then the next gain a pound, etc....... while eating virtually the exact same food week after week.

My point is that weight losses and gains don't always follow logic.

Vesna

Tina, please don't feel bad if you do decide to cut the experiment short before the month ends! It doesn't have to be framed as "flunking out."

Remember, there is no such thing as a successful or unsuccessful experiment -- as far as results go. ("Unsuccessful" would just be things like, the instruments turned out to be broken, so we didn't collect any data. Stuff like that.) An experiment shows what it shows. The important thing is: what sort of information did you generate? What can we learn?

I'm curious as to what it is that is leading you to think of ending the experiment Is it the feeling sick? If that's it, I would support your decision to stop! Ick, who needs that? If you're feeling sick, then why take a risk that you might make yourself really sick.

Or is it the fact that you haven't lost weight? If that's it, then I pose the question: Which of the following are you doing?

If you're conducting an experiment, then I would encourage you to continue. You've invested this much in it already; if you stop short, you're cheating yourself out of completed a good experiment and the contribution to knowledge and inquiry that follows.

If you're trying to lose weight, and you're neither enjoying what you're doing nor losing weight, then switching tracks sounds like a good choice.

Manaloa

Actually the intent was to show that calories can't be stored as fat in the absence of carbs.

I think I just ate too much that day and I'm sick and tired of being full all of the time. And I do have another 60lbs or so to lose so hanging around at this weight doesn't really make me happy.

Vesna

Not to mention, eating double is not the cheapest experiment to conduct, either!

Yup

Sassy

Manaloa,

Why don't you join Dean and me in a few weeks when we start a new experiment? We can encourage each other. My goal is to figure out what I can eat without stalling. I intend to start very basically and then add foods a bit at a time until I stall - that part can be different for each person participating. I'm going to guess that dairy stalls me based on part experience with being low carb and still not losing. I won't be able to start until after I have a test for wheat allergies next month (I'm eating wheat until then). I don't have the details nailed down, but it's slowly coming together the more I think about it.

Sassy

Manaloa

Maybe Sassy, right now I don't want to think of any challenge until I get this nausea under control. I didn't eat anything weird today and my fat intake isn't as high, not abnormally low or anything either and my cals are at right about 2000. So I don't know why I'm nauseous again tonight.

Sassy

I'm sorry you continue to be nauseated - that's miserable BTDT. I hope it clears up for you soon.

Comfort

Sassy

Red

Tina - I also woke up in the night feeling like I was going to hurl. Weird! We're nausea buddies.

Manaloa

Kim

BawdyWench

Tina, other than the whoosh at the end, it doesn't sound like this experiment did much good. Granted, you didn't gain anything (which is great), but you didn't lose anything either.

And now you're losing about a pound a day? What is it you're doing now that you weren't doing before?

Tina's MAM Experiment

Side effects

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