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Dave

Truly Ketogenic Diet Challenge

Okay, okay...... so my foray into Atkins, Kimkins and Optimal Diet has given me some ideas of what I should be eating.

I think I am going to do a Real Ketogenic Diet.

Like the stuff they feed epileptic kids.

Mine will be zero carb.
Limited protein - around 90 grams a day.
The rest will be fat.

No calorie counting or carb eating or exercise.

I will concentrate on limiting protein.


I believe this may have been my problem all along, eating too much protein. Because diets like atkins and Kimkins can allow as much protein as you want.

A guy with a compromised system like me.....well that's bad.

I have never done this type of eating before.

It seems Dan follows a simialr routine, and Jeff did it for a week?


Watch this space.
Dan

Other than the protein limiting. Then again, I'm trying to get bigger now... ;)
Dean

Dave,

This sounds great! Do you mind if I join ya for awhile? I think this will be a good way to get the extra fat off of me. I might eat a bit more protein, so I can put on some muscle, but I understand why you are not going to do that... and totally agree with your reasoning on that.
Dave

Sure Dean! No worries!

I think the thing for me that will be difficult is zero carb, but who knows maybe I will do better with more fat??

I'm starting tomorrow. Off to get some groceries tonight! YAY!
Dean

So, what type of fat are you gonna do? Are you including cheese? If you like it, and it's zero carb, then I think it might help you stay off the carbs. I know that is how I ALWAYS go from carb eating to zero carb... I incorporate a bunch of cheese eating to my diet... works every time to kill the carb cravings! Yup
Dean

I think you are correct in just focusing on eating all the fat you want, and watching your protein intake... and forgetting about carbs. And, forgetting about exercise for now as well. No reason to add unnecessary stress to your life while you are going through the induction phase of this. You will get into exercise once you have all that great energy. You'll have to! Cuz you'll be bouncing off the fricken walls, trust me. I know... BTDT! Yup
Dave

Yeah, plus I'm like 163kilos. Damn that puts some strain on the body!
Rich

I posted inn the other section that I would like to join ya! LOL
Dean

Please do.

As far as guidelines... I think we should stick to as close to zero carb as possible... eat as much animal fat as we possibly can (even dairy, if that's something you enjoy)... and watch our protein intake. I think the key here is gonna be the animal fat, because the more we eat of that the less we will crave or have room for the others. I think animal fat is much more self limiting than sugar. A person can put away tons of calories from sugary, starchy food... but not so from animal fat.

Even though it is much more calorically dense, fat is so satiating that one will naturally limit their intake. As Dan pointed out, it is so much easier to get in a bunch of calories when eating carbs (the refined flour/sugar type) than just doing fat. I think Dave is correct... carb "food" is really not food at all... it's just pure junk. Whereas animal fat is what we evolved on... it's what we developed our brains on. Perhaps we should use those brains and figure out that we should be eating things like fatty meat, butter, etc, and get off the unnatural junk food. I for one am loving this WOE. I'm gonna go get some pork belly and pork fat and render to lard. I already have a bunch of tallow in my freezer.

Animal Fat is where it's at! Yup
Rich

Cheese if you Please Devil
Dean

You know, I may give up the dairy at some point... just to see if my sinuses will clear up. But, for now, I'm gonna use it to get back to eating a high animal fat carnivore diet. Yup
Dan

Try adding a half cup of coconut oil to your coffee, Dean. It works for me.
Dean

A HALF CUP!? Wow

How 'bout having a little coffee with my morning coconut oil? Wink

Dan, are you doing this to up your calories, or to stay off dairy, or do you just like coconut oil? LOL

BTW... that's 940 calories!

At this point I'm not really looking to boost my calories. In fact, I was dong CR (calorie restriction) before I decided to do HF (high fat) yesterday. I don't know if the two will mix that well. But, I'm still doing the IF, and that cuts my cals down a bit. I got some ab fat I wanna shed. I know jeff had some good success shedding his by doing CR. Later on, if I get into CB (calorie boosting?), I'll try this suggestion. That does sound like an easy way to boost calories. Yup

A half cup, huh?... Happy
Jaime

I'd join you guys but I just got back from the store with lettuces,fruits and avocados.
Dean

After you eat up those things... feel free to jump right in. Cool
Jaime

Dean wrote:
After you eat up those things... feel free to jump right in. Cool


I was thinking the same thing. I didn't buy much fruit but wanted some to eat and get it 'out of my system' if you get my drift.
The salad will take me a few days to get through (big container) ...probably a week at the most.
Dean

Jaime,

The salad is so low carb, it won't matter. Once you get done with the fruit, just start in on this Challenge.

BTW... Dan, are you wanting to get in on this?... since you are doing mega fat, and under 40g carbs. I'm keepin' my carbs ultra low for awhile. I need to get back to eating like 90% fat for awhile. It puts me in the BEST mood! Grin
Dan

Dean wrote:
A HALF CUP!? Wow
Yes.

Dean wrote:
How 'bout having a little coffee with my morning coconut oil? Wink


Don't mind if I do. :)

Dean wrote:
Dan, are you doing this to up your calories, or to stay off dairy, or do you just like coconut oil? LOL


Yes. :P

Dean wrote:
BTW... that's 940 calories!


Believe me I know. EVEYRTHING that goes in my mouth goes on FitDay. I've given up going "on feel" a long time ago.

The point is to see where I cross the line between an anabolic diet and an assenormous diet. So far, so good.

Dean wrote:
A half cup, huh?... Happy


Prior I was using a whole cup of heavy cream in my coffee. As one descends into the Optimal Diet, this is pretty typical. Like I've said before, the OD makes Atkins look like Pritkin.
Dean

I guess it depends on how much coffee you drink each day. I limit it to 20oz, so that would be a boat load of cream or coconut oil! I have never tried coconut oil in coffee. I will have to try that tomorrow... just a couple teaspoons, though. Wink

Dan... you belong in this Challenge! LOL
Dave

Okay false start for me - Doh!


But yeah I think this is moving twoards a true carnviore diet.
Jaime

Dean wrote:
Jaime,
The salad is so low carb, it won't matter.


Oh I know that. Happy I don't think the avocados will matter either. I only bought 4 and plan on eating one a day....mixed into the salad. 4 carbs each according to Fitday once you subtract the fiber.



Dean wrote:
Once you get done with the fruit, just start in on this Challenge.


Then I should be done with the fruit by tomorrow evening. I bought one grapefruit and plan on eating that in the morning with breakfast and I have 2 nectarines and 1 pear left. Those will be gone by evening.
I've already eaten the handful of cherries I bought,2 nectarines and a pear (missed dinner and to wiped out from being out all day to cook).
Dan

Dean wrote:
I guess it depends on how much coffee you drink each day.


I...AM...COFFEE.

Nah. I probably do 2 20 oz in a day.

The second one is just a cup of coconut milk though.
Adapaz

Sounds like a good challenge Dave. Is there room for one more?
Dave

Adapaz wrote:
Sounds like a good challenge Dave. Is there room for one more?


Sorry, no more room.


LOL

Kidding!

Of course! All aboard the Keto-train!!!!
jeff

Dave wrote:
Adapaz wrote:
Sounds like a good challenge Dave. Is there room for one more?


Sorry, no more room.


LOL

Kidding!

Of course! All aboard the Keto-train!!!!

I'll ride along to keep you guys company.
Dean

Check this thread I started on keto diets.

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about734.html

My contribution to this Keto-train! Grin
Dave

I've started todayby going zero carb, but conentrating on fat.

I think that approach will help me best. I'll keep an eye on protein portions, and go out of my way to get extra fat.
Dean

That really is the trick, Dave. To get over the carbs for fuel thing as quickly as possible... zero carb and as much fat as you can stomach. The protein will probably take care of itself if you do that. Yup

I'm doing that too, and am LOVIN' it! Puts me in the BEST mood! Of course, you gotta pay your dues and get keto adapted. But, once you do, you will sure be glad you did! Cool
jeff

Dean wrote:
That really is the trick, Dave. To get over the carbs for fuel thing as quickly as possible... zero carb and as much fat as you can stomach. The protein will probably take care of itself if you do that. Yup

I'm doing that too, and am LOVIN' it! Puts me in the BEST mood! Of course, you gotta pay your dues and get keto adapted. But, once you do, you will sure be glad you did! Cool

Amen brother! Yup
Jaime

jeff wrote:

Amen brother!


I just had a Star Trek flashback. LOL

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68810.html
Jaime

Dave wrote:
Yeah, plus I'm like 163kilos. Damn that puts some strain on the body!

Tell me about it. I weigh more then you do.

Is this challenge anything like meat and eggs because that is what I am thinking about doing and adding in extra fat, in the form of butter.

I've been using butter for a while no and have not had any sinus issues so I am going to continue with using butter.
Dean

Jaime,

Lately, I have experienced no sinus issues with cheese. While I haven't been eating that much of it, I don't think cheese (or any dairy) is my problem. Who knows, maybe long term zero carb will cure this sinus issue. After all, the real culprit is an autoimmune problem.

This Challenge, from what I gather, is just about macro ratios. Just do as close to zero carb as you possibly can, get as much fat in your diet as you can, and don't overdo protein. As I said... if you focus on FAT, you won't have any problem with keeping protein low enough, and keeping carbs to damn near zero.

As far as counting calories... fuck that! No need. Much more important to focus on getting these macro ratios in check. That is the real healing power of keto... get those ketone bodies up and your brain will be diggin' it! Wink

This is Dave's Challenge, so I hope he will clear up anything I may have missed or misinterpreted.

As far as exercise, I would advise you and Dave to go for short walks everyday, if you can... gradually increasing the lengths of those walks. It is important to start moving toward some type of exercise. I don't think there are many people that would advise really overweight people to go gung-ho on exercise. That is probably counter productive. But, it is time to get off the couch for everyone, no matter one's present physical condition. Just keep in mind that this is ALL about hormones. Keto and exercise go hand in hand in getting your hormones back in order. I would imagine most people's hormonal balance is screwed.

So, Jaime... are you gonna get on the Keto-train? Cool
Jaime

I *know* my hormones are screwed. I have PCOS. Livid
Bets

If you use dairy, you can make a low carb chocolate drink by adding cocoa powder and stevia to cream. If it's heavy cream, you can whip it and make a delicious dessert. I can't get by without something sweet. I think it's only natural, as we were created with taste buds for sweet.

Bets
Dean

Bets wrote:
I think it's only natural, as we were created with taste buds for sweet.

Yah, that sure has been exploited by the food industry. Yup I know what you mean, though... and that dessert sure sounds heavenly. You should post it in the recipe section. I am gonna buy some berries tomorrow to put in my coconut custard and smoothies. I don't wanna go too sweet on the sweet scale... that can be dangerous for me... and berries aren't really that sweet, but are flavorful. I've never had stevia, and am afraid to mess with it. I mean, I'd try it, but if it made things taste sweet like table sugar does, that could be a disaster for me. Sweets trigger more sweets for me. I must be a sugar addict for sure. Sad
Adapaz

Bets wrote:
I think it's only natural, as we were created with taste buds for sweet.

I wonder if it's natural. It's true that we were born with a taste for sweet as we need carbs as babies for rapid development but how long is that period supposed to last? My guess is only during early childhood. When we begin to loose baby teeth we probably should not eat any more carbs.
If we were created to eat carbs for our whole lives it would make sense that we eaither had the ability to grow teeth, like sharks or have stronger teeth that sugar couldn't damage so easily.
I wonder if a child who consumed carbs from milk and other foods at first but went zero carb at age six would even like sugary foods as an adult.
Dean

Yah... I wonder about that too. One perspective I have, is our ancestors probably never had any cravings for sweets, because there were no sweets to be had. People always talk about them binging on honey. But, I sorta doubt they would have messed with that, cuz of all the bee stings. If they didn't know about sweet stuff like honey, why would they go get stung just to consume it?

I just think we became more and more like the cats. I think we actually followed in their footsteps, first scavenging the leftovers from their kills, and finally developing ways to hunt for ourselves. Ever since we began devouring the brains and marrow found inside the skeletons we scavenged, I think that became the direction for our cravings. We started out in Africa, in the same place as the big cats (no coincidence here), and spread out from there, following the herds. Even later on when the game got scarce, and we had to begin foraging for starvation food, the type of vegetation that was out there was so ridiculously low in carbs and high in fiber that it was not the sweetness of this substance that drew us to it, it was the desperation from the fear of starvation.

Only later on, during the agricultural revolution, did we begin to breed species of plants to make them sweeter and sweeter. Wild berries don't even taste sweet, and I doubt we even ate those. I think we were more focused on eating any meat we could get our hands on. I just don't see an animal at the top of the food chain eating anything else. I don't even see them messing with insects... even those were just foraged starvation food. We did become opportunists and had the developed mental capacity to use that WOE for survival, but it was only once the game got scarce.

I just think once a carnivore, always a carnivore. In our case, we had to look for alternatives for a time. We never lost our taste for meat, though. It's stayed with us up to the present time... even through long periods of slavery and feudalism, etc. Meat eating is much more a part of us than any sweets. It's weird how that survival instinct or whatever it is, is so powerful in us, though... that taste for sweet things. Perhaps as Adapaz (and Bear) said... it is an acquired taste in childhood... acculturation.
Bets

I almost bought that we should be totally carnivore because my body has a hard time with carbs, and then it hit me that man started in the Garden of Eden and lived on fruit. Also, since we have taste buds for five flavors, it makes sense to me that we were created to enjoy five flavors. I understand that the fruit that exists today is toyed with by man and no longer in it's created form, and I can't do anything about that. But enjoyment of the sweet taste is not something I'm going to fight, I just find the safest way to enjoy it that I can. It doesn't need to be sugar sweet, as now when I taste cream all by itself it tastes sweet to me.
I am like you, Dean, in that eating sweet makes me crave even more. Even eating unsweetened grains makes me crave more grains, and then even moves me into the sweet baked goods category. Stevia doesn't do that to me, though, nor does raw dairy. Although stevia doesn't taste as good as sugar, when I use it in my coffee, green tea, or with cocoa powder, it's very satisfying.

Bets
Dean

Bets wrote:
I almost bought that we should be totally carnivore because my body has a hard time with carbs

I'd listen to your body there, Bets. Wink

Bets wrote:
enjoyment of the sweet taste is not something I'm going to fight, I just find the safest way to enjoy it that I can

I don't think it's something that one has to fight, really. I find the longer I am away from sweet tasting things, the less I desire them. Taste is acquired, and we evolved the physiology for many tastes. I think we can get used to "safe tastes" as you mention... and, those tastes can be completely removed from anything sweet. It is not impossible to do this. If you are going to modify your behavior (and your environment), then why not go toward the healthiest one you can? It's totally up to you. If you find that having something sweet like stevia is not going to bring on cravings for other sweets, then go for it. But, if you find that they eventually do drive you back to eating more carbs, then you might wanna rethink that one. Just my thoughts on the whole dilemma from my own experiences as a sugar and nicotine addict. Sometimes the addiction speaks louder than the common sense... and it is wise to be aware of that.

Bets wrote:
I am like you, Dean, in that eating sweet makes me crave even more. Even eating unsweetened grains makes me crave more grains, and then even moves me into the sweet baked goods category. Stevia doesn't do that to me, though, nor does raw dairy. Although stevia doesn't taste as good as sugar, when I use it in my coffee, green tea, or with cocoa powder, it's very satisfying.

Bets, if this is the case for you, consider yourself very lucky. For many (myself included), this would be dangerous territory. BTW... there are actual pharmacological properties in grains that make them addicting. But, sounds like you have found what works for you, using the stevia. That's great. Cool

For me, it's the coffee and cream (and loads of animal fat) that will help keep that donut devil off my shoulder. Yup
Dean

Seeing how this is a Challenge thread... how is everyone doing on this Keto Challenge?

I've been doing fantastic. This WOE agrees with me immensely! Thanks for starting this Challenge, Dave. It's just what I needed to move as far away from the carbs as possible, and get my brain feelin' wonderful, with all those ketone bodies dancin' around.

ketones runnin' all around my brain
gonna stay on the keto train

Cool Sunny Cool

So... how are the rest of you feelin' on this WOE?
Rich

Dean wrote:
Seeing how this is a Challenge thread... how is everyone doing on this Keto Challenge?

I've been doing fantastic. This WOE agrees with me immensely! Thanks for starting this Challenge, Dave. It's just what I needed to move as far away from the carbs as possible, and get my brain feelin' wonderful, with all those ketone bodies dancin' around.

ketones runnin' all around my brain
gonna stay on the keto train

Cool Sunny Cool

So... how are the rest of you feelin' on this WOE?

Ditto Happy
jeff

I"m doing great!!!!
Dave

I went for two days, then fell ill with the flu. For the last two days off work and sick, I've eaten nothing but junk food.

I fail!
Rich

Just a slip Wink
Bets

Dean wrote:
For me, it's the coffee and cream (and loads of animal fat) that will help keep that donut devil off my shoulder. Yup

For me, the cream + cocoa powder + stevia keeps the ice cream demon at bay. (1 year 4 months 2 days)

Bets
Dean

Wow, that's fantastic, Bets! Have you gone this long with no junk food at all?

Please post your recipe in that section, if ya would. If it's a beverage, post it in that forum... if it's more like a dessert, post it in Miscl forum. I'm always trying to find some type of treat. I just dumped deviled eggs Cry so I need to add some other treat(s) to make up for that. It's things like bbq beef ribs, chicken hot wings, coffee and cream, eggnog, smoothies, etc. that keep me from slipping back to eating junk food. During the first half of April, during the April Challenge, I ate nothing but beef and pork with no spices or salt or anything... and only drank water. I was gonna do this for the whole month of April, but I finally cracked. I need some sorta flavor of some kind in my diet! It doesn't necessarily have to be on the sweet side, either. Just something that is interesting to my taste buds. Wink
Dean

Dave wrote:
I went for two days, then fell ill with the flu. For the last two days off work and sick, I've eaten nothing but junk food.

I've never heard of anyone using junk food to treat an illness. Confused Perhaps you should try fasting next time. LOL

Dave wrote:
I fail!

Only if you jump off the keto train! Wink

Or get off the Bus! Cool
Dave

Dean wrote:

I've never heard of anyone using junk food to treat an illness. Confused Perhaps you should try fasting next time. LOL


Fasting! Wow

Actually evertime I get sick I seem to want junk food. The funny thing is that two or so days on junk food and I'm not feeling so bad. maybe body needed it? (fools self).

Hmmmm I have not been this ill since beginning low carb.

I feel the zero carb part put my body into a bit of distress, and the cold was around, and so my immune system copped it.


DIDN'T I TELL YOU I SUCK AT CHALLENGES!!! ARARRGGGHHH!!

Right now I'm going to eat Atkins for a while, to get my strength back.
Dean

Dave wrote:
Fasting! Wow

Yah... it helps rid the body of toxins... it's a great way to heal. The body naturally will desire that when sick. Maybe you had the "induction flu"... in that case, the body just screams for SUGAR! Shock

Dave wrote:
Actually evertime I get sick I seem to want junk food. The funny thing is that two or so days on junk food and I'm not feeling so bad. maybe body needed it?

Yah... that's called addiction, Dave! Wink

Dave wrote:
(fools self)

Yah... that's called denial, Dave! Wink

Dave wrote:
Hmmmm I have not been this ill since beginning low carb.

I'd get off the junk food, then. Trade it in for low fat, vegan, fruitarian, carnivore, keto, paleo, you know, gotta go get on anything other than refined junk food. Don't think it's doin' ya any good, there, Dave.

Dave wrote:
I feel the zero carb part put my body into a bit of distress, and the cold was around, and so my immune system copped it.

Sounds like induction flu, for sure. Yup

Dave wrote:
DIDN'T I TELL YOU I SUCK AT CHALLENGES!!! ARARRGGGHHH!!

You don't suck at challenges... you just don't wanna stick with 'em. LOL Gotta get on some kinda WOE, Dave. Gotta get on it soon.

Dave wrote:
Right now I'm going to eat Atkins for a while, to get my strength back.

What exactly is "eating Atkins", or "doing Atkins"?... all my life I wonder, what is this "Atkins" thing all these folks say they are "on" or "doing"?... is it a drug?... a magic pill?... a magic bullet? Seriously... I've never figured this out. Could somebody explain it to me?

Clue me in, Dave. I'm confused. Confused

So many people "doing Atkins". What a lucky dude he must be. Devil
Heather

Dean wrote:
So many people "doing Atkins". What a lucky dude he must be. Devil

LOL Wow, a lucky dude indeed!
jeff

Heather wrote:
Dean wrote:
So many people "doing Atkins". What a lucky dude he must be. Devil

LOL Wow, a lucky dude indeed!

It's probably what killed him. But hey, what a way to go, eh? Devil
Bets

Do you mean Atkins is a lucky dude?
Bets

Dean wrote:
Wow, that's fantastic, Bets! Have you gone this long with no junk food at all?

Please post your recipe in that section, if ya would. If it's a beverage, post it in that forum... if it's more like a dessert, post it in Miscl forum. I'm always trying to find some type of treat. I just dumped deviled eggs Cry so I need to add some other treat(s) to make up for that. It's things like bbq beef ribs, chicken hot wings, coffee and cream, eggnog, smoothies, etc. that keep me from slipping back to eating junk food. During the first half of April, during the April Challenge, I ate nothing but beef and pork with no spices or salt or anything... and only drank water. I was gonna do this for the whole month of April, but I finally cracked. I need some sorta flavor of some kind in my diet! It doesn't necessarily have to be on the sweet side, either. Just something that is interesting to my taste buds. Wink


No, I haven't gone that long without junk food, just without my favorite: ice cream. Last Christmas my family had a steak sandwich nite and I ate a steak sandwich, roll and all, and I didn't get really sick so I ate several that same week. By New Year's, I had worn down my resistance so low that I bought a single serving size piece of cake from Whole Foods. It was one the best things I had eaten in years. But after that I was sick and tired for months. I had not been doing low carb high protein and fat before that incidence, and didn't return to this WOE til May, so getting back on my feet was a tough struggle. Since last September I wasn't sure what to do, so went through my usual 4 or 5 diet combinations and then returned to this.

When I first was trying to get off sugar about 20 years ago I broke my diet every day for a long time. Then, later, if I was able to not eat sweets for any length of time, when I would break down I would eat them til they either were all gone, til I was sick, or til I would put the rest down the garbage disposal. I was macrobiotic at the time, and had very little self control. This way of eating has given me much more self control. Two weeks ago I went to a dinner at a friend's where you choose things from a menu that only gives you clues to what you are ordering. Then, they just put everything down in front of you in the order that you chose them. One of the things was ice cream, and I was about to eat it, even put the spoon in it, but then pushed it aside. Also, I gave my piece of cake away, even though my husband was sitting there saying how delicious it was. I used to crave ice cream from spring through the whole summer, and would usually break down and eat it a couple of times each year. Last year I was eating the raw cream (but not chocolate) and made it through the whole summer without eating any ice cream except the stuff I made with stevia, and it was easy to do.

By the way (BTW, right?), I'm sorry for posting a food idea in the challenge section. I just thought the idea might make it easier for anyone who has difficulty sticking to the challenge.


Bets

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