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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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 Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:00 am Post subject: |
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jeff,
Why are you comparing Week 4 with Week 1, where I was doing almost twice the number of calories? Talk about cherry picking your data!  Week 3 is roughly the same amount of calories, and I lost less than half as much as I did that week! I mean, there's a metabolic advantage, but, it's not like calories don't count for anything. Look over the weeks, and you'll see that the lower my cals, the more I lost. Same thing happened last year. The less cals I ate, the more I lost, and the dairy issue was very present in the whole equation, as it is this year. Dairy causes me to stall even more than high calories. So, high cals + dairy has always = stall city! My belly was getting distended, as it always has when I consume cow pus, and that was one of the minor issues. Hell, now I know what it feels like to give birth!  Yah, I'm happy to go back to real paleo eating. 
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Friday February 13
2874 Calories
78% Fat
Chuck Eye
Butter
Eggs
Italian Sausage
Wow, am I glad the dairy is gone from my WOE! Never again! 
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | jeff,
Why are you comparing Week 4 with Week 1, where I was doing almost twice the number of calories? Talk about cherry picking your data! Week 3 is roughly the same amount of calories, and I lost less than half as much as I did that week! I mean, there's a metabolic advantage, but, it's not like calories don't count for anything. Look over the weeks, and you'll see that the lower my cals, the more I lost. Same thing happened last year. The less cals I ate, the more I lost, and the dairy issue was very present in the whole equation, as it is this year. Dairy causes me to stall even more than high calories. So, high cals + dairy has always = stall city! My belly was getting distended, as it always has when I consume cow pus, and that was one of the minor issues. Hell, now I know what it feels like to give birth! Yah, I'm happy to go back to real paleo eating. |
Dean, in your own words:
| Quote: | Yes.
On ZCarnivore, calories are irrelevant. |
| Quote: | | Dairy causes me to stall even more than high calories. So, high cals + dairy has always = stall city! |
Apparently we have a new definition of "stall". If you only lose about 1.75 pounds in a week, you are "stalled".
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Also, what I was trying to say earlier was that weight can fluctuate for no apparent reason. When we see a small change in pattern from one week to the next, you really can't pinpoint any one reason, even if you did make a change that week.
A few years ago, when I lost most of my weight, I was losing about 10 pounds per month pretty steadily. But, every once in awhile I'd have a week where I'd gain weight for no apparent reason.
I was just trying to say that your decrease in weight loss may or may not have been due to the addition of cheese and eggs. That week may have turned out the way it did no matter what.
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Kim
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | Thursday February 12
I'm DONE with dairy!  It's just not worth it anymore.
For the last week, I've had gut issues, constipation, belly bloating, sinus problems, and crazy cravings. Now I've got a brick in my colon and a stuffed up head!  I know other Bus members who have had similar problems with this crap, and, so, it's official. Aside from a little butter for dipping seafood in, I'm all through with the cow pus!
It's not even a paleo food. It's an agricultural concoction that has caused me way too much grief. Well, no more! I'm shippin' this stuff back to Wisconsin, where it belongs! They can have it all. They can have my entire corporation. jeff, tell the governor to make my restraining order permanent! I don't care if I never see another dairy cow again!  |
Dean, I think that cheese caused me the same problem. Once I start eating it, it's hard to stop. Even just eating meat and water with ocassional cheese, my sinuses have not completed cleared out.
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Manaloa
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I hear ya Dean, I also have problems with dairy as much as I love it. Send it back to Jeff.
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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______________________________________
Week 1 : Wed Jan 14 - Tue Jan 20
Maintenance Calories: 2107
Food: Seasoned Meat and Water
Average Calories: 5232
Average Fat: 86%
Expected: 2.8 kg body fat gain
Actual: 0.4 kg body fat loss
______________________________________
Week 2 : Wed Jan 21 - Tue Jan 27
Maintenance Calories: 2103
Food: Seasoned Meat and Water
Average Calories: 4026
Average Fat: 88%
Expected: 1.7 kg body fat gain
Actual: 1.9 kg body fat loss
______________________________________
Week 3 : Wed Jan 28 - Tue Feb 3
Maintenance Calories: 2097
Food: Seasoned Meat and Water
Average Calories: 3057
Average Fat: 84%
Expected: 0.9 kg body fat gain
Actual: 2.0 kg body fat loss
______________________________________
Week 4 : Wed Feb 4 - Tue Feb 10
Maintenance Calories: 2081
Food: Seasoned Meat & Eggs, Cheese, Butter, Water
Average Calories: 3098
Average Fat: 80%
Expected: 0.9 kg body fat gain
Actual: 0.8 kg body fat loss
______________________________________
Week 5 : Wed Feb 11 - Tue Feb 17
Maintenance Calories: 2069
Food: Seasoned Meat & Eggs, Butter, Water
Average Calories: 3186
Average Fat: 82%
Expected: 1.0 kg body fat gain
Actual: 1.6 kg body fat loss
______________________________________
Total : Wed Jan 14 - Tue Feb 17
Average Calories: 3720
Average Fat: 84%
Expected: 7.3 kg body fat gain
Actual: 6.7 kg body fat loss
______________________________________
Week 5 results are in!
Remove the cow pus, lose more body fat. Belly bloat is now gone. GI tract is quiet. All is good. Down another pant size. 
To up my fat this past week, I did lots of butter. That does not bother me at all.
While dairy in general is definitely cow pus, butter is more like cow cum. 
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | While dairy in general is definitely cow pus, butter is more like cow cum. |
OH my!
Interesting. Butter is still dairy, but people that have problems with dairy seem to usually be ok with butter. Maybe it's the bit of carbs that are in cheese and cream, and not necessarily the fact that it's dairy. 
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Manaloa
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe it's the mold in the cheese and cream. No mold in the butter because of the high fat content surrounding anything that could mold (butter is like milk solids pemmican). I get the same sinus issues w/cream & cheese that I do when I'm around mold.
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Dean
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Great point, Tina! I think you've nailed it.
Yah, that moldy old cow pus can stay in Wisconsin.
Just ship me the cow cum!
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Mold in cheese and cream? That's news to me.
| Quote: | Some supporters of this myth think that cheese cannot be ruined by mold because in some sense cheese is mold or at least is derived from mold. While it is true that molds are often used in cheesemaking, it is not a necessary ingredient.
Cheese is simply what you get by isolating the solid material in milk. Separating the curds (the solid part of milk) from the whey (the liquid part) most often begins with the addition of a starter culture to fresh milk. Starter culture is always a kind of bacteria, whereas mold is a kind of fungus. I think Myth #957 gains some of its support from the conflation of mold with bacteria. |
| Quote: | After curds are isolated from the milk, you've got cheese. The curds they can be cut, pressed or enriched with various additional flavors without molds ever entering the picture.
Molds do play an important role in the production of blue cheeses and soft-ripened cheeses like Brie and Camembert. Penicillium roqueforti, for example, is used in the production of Roquefort and other blue cheeses, and Penicillium camemberti and Penicillium candida are used in Brie and Camembert. (A different variety of Penicillium is used to produce penicillin.) Most types of cheese, however, do not require the action of any kind of mold. |
http://corksandcurds.blogspot.com.../08/myths-about-moldy-cheese.html
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Dean
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Tell the governor to give it up, jeff!
Wine and cheese are toxic treats that will never be paleo!
We'll let butter slide, though. The Boot Babes do it all the time.
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jeff
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We'll let butter slide, though. The Boot Babes do it all the time. |
There's always an exception, isn't there? (Thank God!)
BTW, how many cows did paleo man eat?
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Dean
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | how many cows did paleo man eat? |
One per day... except on Sunday? 
I give up. How many?
BTW, who the fuck is paleo man?
Sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon character! 
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y0u
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Dean
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: |
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y0u are deranged!
And, I like it! 
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Manaloa
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | Mold in cheese and cream? That's news to me.
| Quote: | Some supporters of this myth think that cheese cannot be ruined by mold because in some sense cheese is mold or at least is derived from mold. While it is true that molds are often used in cheesemaking, it is not a necessary ingredient.
Cheese is simply what you get by isolating the solid material in milk. Separating the curds (the solid part of milk) from the whey (the liquid part) most often begins with the addition of a starter culture to fresh milk. Starter culture is always a kind of bacteria, whereas mold is a kind of fungus. I think Myth #957 gains some of its support from the conflation of mold with bacteria. |
| Quote: | After curds are isolated from the milk, you've got cheese. The curds they can be cut, pressed or enriched with various additional flavors without molds ever entering the picture.
Molds do play an important role in the production of blue cheeses and soft-ripened cheeses like Brie and Camembert. Penicillium roqueforti, for example, is used in the production of Roquefort and other blue cheeses, and Penicillium camemberti and Penicillium candida are used in Brie and Camembert. (A different variety of Penicillium is used to produce penicillin.) Most types of cheese, however, do not require the action of any kind of mold. |
http://corksandcurds.blogspot.com.../08/myths-about-moldy-cheese.html |
Yes, but what happens when you leave cheese to sit too long, it molds. As, of course, do a lot of fresh foods. I'm suggesting that the molds are present, but minimal on most cheeses until it gets to the point of obvious mold. I'm also suggesting that perhaps even that small amount of whatever particular mold that favors cheeses are what people have (some) sinus/gastro issues with.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I give up. How many? |
I'm not sure either, but very few, if any, I suspect.
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jeff
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, but what happens when you leave cheese to sit too long, it molds. As, of course, do a lot of fresh foods. I'm suggesting that the molds are present, but minimal on most cheeses until it gets to the point of obvious mold. I'm also suggesting that perhaps even that small amount of whatever particular mold that favors cheeses are what people have (some) sinus/gastro issues with. |
Possibly, but I kind of doubt it. As you mentioned, most any fresh food will develop mold. So either the mold is present in all food to begin with, or it is airborne and affects the food only after exposure. Mold will develop on the surface of the cheese. This suggests that the mold is airborne, and not inherent in the cheese. Contrast this with blue cheeses, which do contain mold. The mold grows inside and throughout the cheese.
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Heather L
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: |
Just ship me the cow cum! |
Dean, leave it to you to find a new way to make butter sound "dirty". |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Heather L wrote: | | Dean wrote: |
Just ship me the cow cum! |
Dean, leave it to you to find a new way to make butter sound "dirty". |
I wonder what would happen if we mixed the cow cum with some Kool-Aid.  Perhaps we should retire to the back of the bus and find out. 
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Heather L
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | Heather L wrote: | | Dean wrote: |
Just ship me the cow cum! |
Dean, leave it to you to find a new way to make butter sound "dirty". |
I wonder what would happen if we mixed the cow cum with some Kool-Aid. Perhaps we should retire to the back of the bus and find out. |
Jeff- You know I like a good experiment. Show me what you've got. |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Heather L wrote: | | jeff wrote: | | Heather L wrote: | | Dean wrote: |
Just ship me the cow cum! |
Dean, leave it to you to find a new way to make butter sound "dirty". |
I wonder what would happen if we mixed the cow cum with some Kool-Aid. Perhaps we should retire to the back of the bus and find out. |
Jeff- You know I like a good experiment. Show me what you've got. |
Now there's an offer that's impossible to refuse!
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y0u
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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I used to work in a deli that had over 200 kinds of cheese. The deli manager told me that the main reason cheese molds is because it came in contact with human skin, and that the oils in our skin provide a lovely base for the molds to grow on, along with the cheese. It is my understanding that molds and yeasts are spores that travel about in the air and when they find a lovely culture or medium to nest upon..they make babies. Think Belgian beer yeast..it makes it sound more romantic and exciting.. Cheese does not contain mold(besides the type that is inoculated into cheese on purpose).
Also for you pus haters out there...., Goat milk cheeses are better tolerated by many because they contain very little lactose, so do cow swiss, parmesan, sour cream and cheddars. Many folks who can tolerate goat cheese also do well with sheep cheeses.
Goat cheeses also contain more medium chain fatty acids than cow, that is what gives it it's tart flavor.
And yes Dean..I am strange..Now send me all your cheese..I'll put it to good use. If nothing else, I will strap it to my thighs and hike up mountains and lose weight that way.
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Patricia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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ALL YOUR CHEESE ARE BELONG TO US
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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yOu, thanks for the cheese/mold explanation. That is very much in line with what I was thinking.
I believe it about the human hands. I work in a bar. We get these huge 1 gallon jars of olives. I have seen them several months old after being opened, and they are fine. But I can always tell if somebody reaches in and grabs some with their bare hand. Little specs of white mold will appear very quickly.
Dean.....and others......I think lactose is the problem.
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Nicola
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Bobi
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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.. | Quote: | | But I can always tell if somebody reaches in and grabs some with their bare hand. Little specs of white mold will appear very quickly. |
YUKKKK!!!!
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y0u
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff, I concur in regards to the lactose issue. I also think the amount of dairy one consumes plays a large role as well. I only eat about 2 ounces a day.
| Nicola wrote: |
Bad bugs in the gut and cheese sticks like glue!
Nicola |
I like sniffing glue...do you think sniffing cheese will do the same thing?
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Dean
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Paleo man might sniff cow pus from time to time, but, I think it's a disgusting practice!
Like Bobi said.
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Nicola
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| y0u wrote: | Jeff, I concur in regards to the lactose issue. I also think the amount of dairy one consumes plays a large role as well. I only eat about 2 ounces a day.
| Nicola wrote: |
Bad bugs in the gut and cheese sticks like glue!
Nicola |
I like sniffing glue...do you think sniffing cheese will do the same thing? |
It's no rubbish; cheese is like glue in the gut (the gut is nice an warm!)
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Glue-out-of-Milk
Nicola |
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y0u
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I knew there was a reason I liked to eat glue...MmMMmMmmm
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Dean
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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y0u like glue?! 
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y0u
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Ummmmm....Glue isn't what you stick pemmican together with...?
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jeff
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | Paleo man might sniff cow pus from time to time, but, I think it's a disgusting practice!
Like Bobi said. |
Dean, I still think we'd be much better off using human milk to make our dairy products. Remember that discussion from a few years ago? What could be healthier than eating a food that we know is specifically designed to be consumed by humans?
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y0u
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff, You just want another excuse to suckle a nipple....
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Bobi
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, I despise milk!!! I'll stick to heavy cream.
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Dean
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: |
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I'm stickin' (like glue) to cow cum.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| y0u wrote: | | Jeff, You just want another excuse to suckle a nipple.... |
Was I that obvious?
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Look who's talking about sexual innuendo!
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Renee
Location: East Coast, USA
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:27 pm Post subject: Where does it go? |
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I've been marvelling at your metabolic experiments here. I wouldn't be the first to say I can't get over the whole "calories don't matter" thing, even though I'm reading the evidence right here. An extra 1000 calories of fat is about 1/4 pound, or half a cup of fat, I think. And, during your experiments, you and Jeff ate between 1 and 3 times that above your calculated daily caloric needs. According to a comment from Dr. Mike Eades (also discussed here), it isn't excreted in stool. Which is surprising, because I'm pretty sure that's what's happened that time I was at a fish fry. Then again, my body wasn't acclimated to that much fried fish.
1000 calories a day burned as heat (since you two went out of your way NOT to do extra extrinsic work). That seems to be enough to raise the temperature of a 180lb human body 26 degrees. Does your WOE keep your warm at night? Does it make you thirsty?
Thanks for edifying the curious. |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Born: 10 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Renee. Welcome to the Bus.
When I was doing these experiments I did not notice any differences such as feeling warmer or thirstier. I also beleive that the extra is not excreted. If it was, I think it would have been obvious, if you know what I mean.
Perhaps Dean can chime in with his experience as well.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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Born: 10 March 1960
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Dean, what happened to week 6? Too busy in the back of the Bus with the butter and the Boot Babes?
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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During my MAM Experiment, I don't recall feeling extra warm or thirsty.
Now, in the back of the Bus with lots of hot butter and Boot Babes, that has drastically changed!
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Renee
Location: East Coast, USA
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 11
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: Where does it go? |
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Dean and Jeff,
I imagine you WOULD notice a sudden 1/2 cup of fat (1000 Cal worth) in your daily stool! What surprises me is that I'd think you'd notice the extra heat generated -- enough to raise the temp of a 180lb human 26 degrees. Enough to evaporate 7 1/2 cups of sweat. Turning the fat into heat only produces about 10% of that water, I think.
So I'm surprised. Where does it go? Does your body temp run a little hotter all day and all night, allowing you to lose more heat to radiation without a noticeable increase in perspiration? Has anyone done that metabolic experiment?
It's just amazing. Where does it all go? |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Born: 10 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Renee, it's possible our body temperature was slightly elevated, but it was nothing that I noticed.
Dr. Mike Eades gave a very detailed explanation of what happens to the excess energy.
http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about611.html&highlight=
The simple answer is futile cycles. Things get shuffled around, lots of work gets done, but nothing is accomplished. It's like moving a pile of rocks from one pile to another and then back again. Alot of work was done, but nothing was accomplished.
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yah, the dietary fat gets broken down and the molecules go into the cells and they are used to create ATP molecules. On a normal diet of fat, versus glucose, for our energy needs, excess ATP is used up in futile cycles inside the cells. ATP molecules are used to shuttle protons through the inner mitochondrial membrane. The protons keep building up on one side of the membrane, and ATP is used to push them back to the other side, to create equilibrium. This is where all the extra fat goes - to make ATP that is burned up inside the cells, moving protons. It's futile work, moving these protons to the other side of the membrane, hence it's called "futile cycles". The fat does not simply go through the intestines, because, on this type of diet, I have extremely infrequent and minimal elimination.
When you use glucose for energy, the way ATP is created is different, so there is fat storage. Some of the byproducts of ATP production using glucose actually facilitates this fat storage.
So, pick your fuel, and get fat or get thin. It's your choice.
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When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix
Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus! |
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Renee
Location: East Coast, USA
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 11
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: Where Does it all go? |
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Yep. I did read Dr. Mike Eades' comment on futile cycles -- the extra calories slosh around in one chemical form or another before finally being lost as heat. That's what had me wondering what it was like to burn an extra 1000 to 3000 calories as heat. The answer, for Dean and Jeff, seems to be -- not noticeable.
Amazing. |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 5981
Born: 10 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps if we had taken our temperature it may have shown up. I really don't know.
A calorie is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree celsius. So 1,000 calories would be the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree celsius, right? My friend Google tells me that 1 kilogram of water is equal to 1 liter at 4 degrees celsius. To be honest, it doesn't seem like it would take a whole lot for my body to raise the temperature of 1 liter of water by 1 degree celsius. Especially if it has 24 hours in which to do it.
If that sounds crazy, nevermind. I'm just thinking out loud.
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y0u
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 22 Jan 2009
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Born: 2 December 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Don't worry Jeff, we know your hot!! 
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