Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject:
Red wrote:
Anything other than the expected gain is meaningful.
Meaningful, yes. Significant (in statistical terms) not necessarily. One does need to establish what is and is not going to be statistically significant when carrying out any experiment.
In statistics, a result is called significant if it is unlikely to have occurred by chance. "A statistically significant difference" simply means there is statistical evidence that there is a difference; it does not mean the difference is necessarily large, important or significant in the usual sense of the word.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject:
You know what I really hope happens is that both jeff and I end up losing 20 lbs after 30 days of eating 2000 extra calories per day. Now that would be significant both statistically and in every other way!
Hey, one can only hope! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Red wrote:
Anything other than the expected gain is meaningful.
Meaningful, yes. Significant (in statistical terms) not necessarily. One does need to establish what is and is not going to be statistically significant when carrying out any experiment.
In statistics, a result is called significant if it is unlikely to have occurred by chance. "A statistically significant difference" simply means there is statistical evidence that there is a difference; it does not mean the difference is necessarily large, important or significant in the usual sense of the word.
OK. But I think that you're looking at this a bit erroneously. What you're saying is that a gain or loss of 2-3 lbs would not be significant either way, which is not true. A gain of 2-3 lbs would not be significant in proving that eating excess calories causes weight gain within the context of a VLC diet. A gain within 2-3 lbs of the expected gain would not be significant in disproving it. Make sense? So what I mean is, if Jeff eats an excess of 60,000 calories and gains 3 lbs, that is not significant in proving that excess calories cause weight gain. If Jeff eats those same calories and only gains 15 lbs, instead of the expected 17, then that is not significant in proving that excess calories don't cause weight gain. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject:
I totally understand and agree with what you are saying, Red.
I think the "minor fluctuations" that jeff was referring to may have meant fluctuations from what the expected gain should be. But, I'm not entirely certain what he meant, so I won't speak for him.
I will say that I agree with you on the fact that we need to be looking at the expected gain when formulating the null hypothesis. So, we should state: An increase of 17 (+/- 3) pounds will occur when consuming an average of 2000 calories above daily energy requirements per day for 30 days while eating VLC.
So, in attempting to disprove or reject this null hypothesis, we would have to treat anything that would be between 14 - 20 pounds for our final weight gains as the same. And the +/- 3 pound deviation from the expected 17 pounds is therefore insignificant in the end results. And, you're correct, anything else would be significant, cuz it would be a larger deviation from the expected gain of 17 pounds, and therefore we could reject the status quo calorie theory. That's all we are really trying to do here, is disprove the established theory. And, I guess you have already deviated more than 3 pounds, right? If this holds up for 30 days, that will be very cool.
BTW... if we end up gaining the expected amount, that does not prove the calorie theory. You can't prove a theory, you can only disprove it. So we will either disprove the calorie theory, or we will fail to disprove it. We cannot prove it.
I think we are all on the same page here.
So, let the butter eating begin! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:36 am Post subject:
Red wrote:
I think Jeff is saying that a 2 or 3 lb gain wouldn't be significant in the context of fat gain. That a 2 or 3 lb gain would not prove that any fat was stored, as a person's body can easily hold on to 2 or 3 lbs in water/salt, etc. in a given day. Not that anything other than a gain or loss of 10 lbs is insignificant. Personally, I think any change or lack of change is meaningful. Even if you were expecting to gain 20 lbs and only gained 5, that would still be hugely significant. Anything other than the expected gain is meaningful. And I have definitely experienced something other than the expected gain.
Thanks Red. That is exactly what I was trying to say. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:40 am Post subject:
Quote:
I think we are all on the same page here.
So, let the butter eating begin!
I'll wait another week or so. I take that back. It's a rare day that I dont take at least a little nibble of some butter. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:43 am Post subject:
Billi-Jean wrote:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
Seriously, it seems that your exercising is the thing that has given you the body you want, and not the low carbing. So, once again, how are we gonna prove it is the diet?
How about some input from the cheerleaders? If they can come up with a unanimous decision, I will abide by whatever they say.
glad you appreciate our input and not just our pompoms!!
Well, I guess I do find it hard to believe that 20 mins exercise a couple of times a week is going to make any difference at all...except maybe to maintain a bit of muscle mass -so if anything wouldn't that just ensure that the results actually show a more accurate picture of whether any actual fat is gained?
I agree, BJ. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:46 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
I think the "minor fluctuations" that jeff was referring to may have meant fluctuations from what the expected gain should be. But, I'm not entirely certain what he meant, so I won't speak for him.
Basically, yes. A few pounds of weight gain can happen for any number of reasons. Not only fat storage. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
How does that look? Any thoughts or comments? That would give me enough calories so that I should gain about 13 pounds.
jeff,
How 'bout eating lots of pork belly. You can get the actual pork belly, or you can get the pork ribs, which come from the belly. Those have a TON of fat in them. That would increase your calories much easier than beef. 16oz of Pork Belly and 16oz of Country Style Ribs have 3692 calories! Just a thought. Plug pork belly into FitDay, and see what I mean. Also, if you cook with lard or tallow, you will get a bunch of fat if you pour all of it over your meat. And, you can melt a lot of butter over skillet seared steak. What I do is take like a half stick of butter, and I cut the pieces and top the searing steak (after I turned it over). Then put a lid on so the butter melts all over the steak, and when you put the steak on your plate, be sure to pour all the melted butter over the steak, then you will have all that butter swimming around on your plate, and you can dip your bites of steak in it. And, make sure to take a spoon and eat all this butter when you are through with your steak. Garlic powder adds a nice flavor to this. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:26 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Any thoughts or comments? That would give me enough calories so that I should gain about 13 pounds.
I think it is important to go for the maximum calories that we can. So, eat that butter! I think the more calories we eat in the 30 days, and therefore the more expected weight gain, then the possible variation to this expected gain may be greater. The more things are "off" from what they "should be", the more it will substantiate our claim that a MA exists, and even larger than what some say. So, try to get as many calories in as you can. Drink hot butter, that is a great drink that will give you just truck loads of calories. That is one of the things I plan to do. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:23 am Post subject:
I was just looking through this thread and was imagining what a modern day cardiologist would think of what we are eating!
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject:
Managed 3000 calories yesterday. I'm getting there. Still no gain. If I can get to 3300, then I'll officially be 2000 calories above my maintenance amount. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject:
Wow, Red,
You are giving me hope that I will be able to do this and not gain body fat. Will be very interesting to see. Right now I'm goin' long enough on close to zero carb to get rid of all the excess glycogen stores, which I probably have done by now. Will just have to start gettin' used to usin' FitDay, set up some typical foods in there. If I'm gonna do this for 30 days, I'm gonna make it count, by consuming as many excess calories as possible. jeff, I would highly advise you to do the same. Make this MAM Experiment count. If three of us get the same type of results, that will bust open a paradigm shift in the whole calorie theory. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject:
Red wrote:
Managed 3000 calories yesterday. I'm getting there. Still no gain. If I can get to 3300, then I'll officially be 2000 calories above my maintenance amount.
Red, as Dean said, WOW!!
This is very exciting...especially for all us females (I don't know quite how to explain why I say that, really, it but it just seems to me that there isn't enough of this type of anecdotal confirmation about the excess calorie thing coming from women, so, therefore, many women still find it hard to 'let loose' so to speak, like a lot of guys seem able to and really experiment with eating heaps of fat -probably a bit of a subconscious thing.)
So it's AWESOME to see a woman, er, grabbing the bull by the horns!
GO RED!!
Your pioneering spirit is helping to dispel some of those last niggling deep-seated fears that I've been finding hard to shake -you're a STAR!!
It's funny...I have stopped gaining after putting on that 3-4 pounds of what I'm sure is muscle (sure doesn't look like fat, anyway!)
I haven't been counting calories or keeping track of protein:fat ratio but I'd be willing to bet, from past experience tracking this stuff that I'm averaging around 2400-2600 calories per day too.
Now I used to gain at anything over 1000!
So I don't know why I'm so stunned at your results since I think I'm doing a similar thing to you! But, I think maybe it's because it can be all too easy to view one's own results as merely an anomaly and thus dismiss or not trust whatever results or reactions we see in ourselves
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject:
So Red, are you losing anything? Or are you just maintaining the same weight? Seems like what BJ is doing. And, I have been at the same place, a three week stall. I've been eating quite a bit of calories from loads of fat, cheese, etc. Been eating very few carbs.
So, perhaps Eades is correct. One will not lose, but they won't gain either. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject:
Red wrote:
Is no one else doing this? Just we three?
Well, I suppose if we just make this an ongoing metabolic ward, I mean Experiment thread, I guess as many people that wanted to do this could. That will make it interesting. But, for now, just we three have the desire to lock ourselves into this metabolic ward. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject:
How's this for a new null hypothesis?
An increase of body weight will occur when consuming excess calories over daily energy requirements, at a rate of one pound for every 3500 calories consumed over 105,000 in 30 days, regardless of macro ratios.
Let's see how many people can debunk this! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:50 am Post subject:
Actually, BJ, it's you who inspired me, believe it or not. All your talk about how you'd reduced your protein intake and were splooshing fat all over everything. It reminded me of my Optimal Nutrition roots and that my metabolism had become sluggish. Trust me, I used to gain on 1000 calories, too! This is a huge deal for me, as a woman who used to rely solely on CR and who starved herself regularly.
I figured it was time to put my vanity aside and stop trying to lose weight for 5 minutes (since I was losing f*** all, anyway) and try to heal myself a bit and start from scratch. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:55 am Post subject:
So, that means Eades is correct, and I'm not gonna lose anything? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:01 am Post subject:
Wait. I'm confused. What is this challenge about for you, Dean? Disproving the calorie theory or losing weight? Because there are quicker ways to lose weight than to eat 5000 calories a day... _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:05 am Post subject:
Yah, I suppose I will make a good research subject, since I will prove that Eades is correct. I'll prove I can eat a high fat diet and not gain, but not lose either. So, I guess I should do this. But, I am goin' on a restricted calorie diet right after that! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:14 am Post subject:
Red wrote:
Actually, BJ, it's you who inspired me, believe it or not. All your talk about how you'd reduced your protein intake and were splooshing fat all over everything. It reminded me of my Optimal Nutrition roots and that my metabolism had become sluggish. Trust me, I used to gain on 1000 calories, too! This is a huge deal for me, as a woman who used to rely solely on CR and who starved herself regularly.
I figured it was time to put my vanity aside and stop trying to lose weight for 5 minutes (since I was losing f*** all, anyway) and try to heal myself a bit and start from scratch.
That just MADE MY DAY!!!
You're right, it's such an amazing breakthrough...don't know *what* made me swap some of my protein for fat, but what a difference!! It was the literal and rather better manifestation of the old saying "No pain, no gain"
I really would join you guys and try to squeeze more fat in, as I'm excited about all this, but, I think it's still a little too early for me yet -my digestion has improved about 1000% by I don't want to push it just yet. Still think it may be too delicate to handle any such extremes.
Perhaps in a few months when it all feels fully strong and functioning I'll try the 4000 cal feat (heehee, til then I can just be 'in training' so to speak for the 'marathon'! )
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:22 am Post subject:
Well, from the sounds of it, I'm not eating all that much more than you are. So it won't be that big of a stretch for you to do this eventually. Not that you need to once we've disproved the calorie theory. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:38 am Post subject:
Of course, the more people that also disprove that outdated theory, the better.
I think BJ is sort of disproving it now, as I probably am. I've actually been eating lots of fat calories, and I have not gained a single pound. If I was still eating donuts, that would definitely NOT be the case.
I'm lookin' forward to puttin' in my 30 days of service in this metabolic ward.
All I know is, when I get released, I'm goin' straight to the store and pickin' up some CORN OIL!
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:51 am Post subject:
It's just all these new studies I've been readin' on the net. Have you seen the latest thread in the Nutrition forum? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:34 am Post subject:
Here ya go, BJ. Go get "educated"!
http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about838.html _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:01 am Post subject:
Billi-Jean wrote:
...you mean about the *supposed* benefits of PUFA's and MUFA's as opposed to SAT fats?
Cell membrane fluidity and all that??
Sounds biased and still riddled with SAT fat phobia to me!!
I remember in biochem classes when they'd talk about that. I'd always say "it's a damn good thing I eat lots of saturated animal fat, otherwise my cells would all be fallin' apart!"
The other students and the professor would all just go...
See, Dave, that smiley is MINE! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:17 am Post subject:
...this little guy ( ) is just so cute I wanna squish him!!
So true, Dean!! ..in my biochem classes, a similar reaction would occur when I said that it kinda looked to me like cholesterol was a pretty important part of the phospholipid bilayer, since it made up about 20% of the darn thing. And that anyway, at normal body temp it was needed to make the lipid bilayer stonger and at colder temps, cholesterol helped by actually increasing membrane fluidity! Their response:
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Red wrote:
Is no one else doing this? Just we three?
Well, I suppose if we just make this an ongoing metabolic ward, I mean Experiment thread, I guess as many people that wanted to do this could. That will make it interesting. But, for now, just we three have the desire to lock ourselves into this metabolic ward.
So, which one of us is going to volunteer to inform AC of our results? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff,
How 'bout eating lots of pork belly. You can get the actual pork belly, or you can get the pork ribs, which come from the belly. Those have a TON of fat in them.
Dean, I've never seen pork belly in the grocery stores around here. Maybe a meat processor would have it. I do have severl nearby. Also, the country style pork ribs that we have here don't seem to be near as fatty as whay you describe. The ones I find are just about void of fat, except for the marbling. Maybe they are using the same term for a different cut?
I will try to get in as many calories as I possibly can. This will mean lots of extra fat.
A question......are we going to check our progress thoughout the month, or wait until the 30 days is up to weigh in? I think I would vote to wait until the end. Any body else have an opinion? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject:
Dean, are you going to attempt IFing during the MAM experiment, or is that out the window? You could probably charge admission to have people watch you consume 5000 calories in a 4 hour period. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject:
Red wrote:
Wait. I'm confused. What is this challenge about for you, Dean? Disproving the calorie theory or losing weight? Because there are quicker ways to lose weight than to eat 5000 calories a day...
If you notice the OP, I was saying I would start after the first of next year, mainly cuz I wanted to lose some body fat before starting this, since I am concerned that I won't lose any doing this experiment, which seems to be happening to me, as well as others, now.
And, Red, this isn't a Challenge, it's an Experiment. Also, I did not start this thread to disprove the calorie theory. I am not out to disprove anything. I just want to do the experiment and see what it will disprove or not disprove. I think you are mixing me up with the Food Industry. They are the ones who conduct research with a desired result already in mind. That is NOT a scientific method, it is just a marketing tool. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
So, which one of us is going to volunteer to inform AC of our results?
I will volunteer to post a link to this thread. Just how long it will stay up is anyone's guess. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
There! It's DONE! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Dean, I've never seen pork belly in the grocery stores around here. Maybe a meat processor would have it. I do have severl nearby. Also, the country style pork ribs that we have here don't seem to be near as fatty as whay you describe. The ones I find are just about void of fat, except for the marbling. Maybe they are using the same term for a different cut?
I've never seen it in any grocery stores around here either. I had to get it from a meat processor, about 2 miles away is all. It is SO worth it. You've just gotta try that recipe! Do you have an Asian market around there?
jeff wrote:
I will try to get in as many calories as I possibly can. This will mean lots of extra fat.
The more you do, the greater this futile cycle theory will be fortified.
jeff wrote:
A question......are we going to check our progress throughout the month, or wait until the 30 days is up to weigh in? I think I would vote to wait until the end. Any body else have an opinion?
You know, I was actually thinking about just writing down the food as I put it into my fridge (from my freezer and the store), and that way I will know much more precisely how much I am eating for the 30 days. No estimating. Then, at the end of the 30 days, plug all that into FitDay. I mean, all the meat packages have weights on them. I can easily calculate how many ounces of cream, by just keeping track of how many cartons I use, etc. My advice to you would be to find a spot in the fridge, if you can, and make that for your food consumption only. May be too hard for you, but if you can, that would make it much easier to know exactly how many pounds of steak, burger, and how many ounces of cream, the number of eggs, etc.
That's the way I'm gonna do it. Cuz, I hate estimating stuff. Then, in the end, I can plug in like 26.45 lbs of hamburger, 19.27 lbs of pork belly, 768 oz of cream, 114 eggs, etc. into FitDay. That will give me a very accurate account of all that I have ingested over the 30 days. I'll know instantly what the total calories, as well as macro ratios are. See if you can do this the same way, cuz it will sure beat having to mess with FitDay every day! Plus, it will greatly increase the accuracy. I think using FitDay just to check and see how many calories are in such and such, just so you can be eating a ton of that stuff is fine, but I'd rather wait till the end to enter what I've eaten. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Dean, are you going to attempt IFing during the MAM experiment, or is that out the window? You could probably charge admission to have people watch you consume 5000 calories in a 4 hour period.
I'm probably going to have to eat several times a day. I am going to focus heavily on pork, lard, tallow, and butter. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject:
Problem is, Dean, you won't know how many calories you're consuming until the experiment's over. It's good to check on a daily basis, so you know if you're reaching the amount you're aiming for. For example, I've had some days where I've felt like I've eaten a ton and feel no hunger, but I'm nowhere near 3000 calories. It's not hard to program into fitday every day, especially if you're only eating two or three things, like pork belly, some butter and a glass of whipping cream.
By the way, I haven't been able to find information on pork belly in fitday that isn't raw. They have 'fresh bacon', but the amounts listed for that seem more like they would for thin slices of bacon that have been well cooked and are crispy (i.e. most of the fat is rendered out), which also isn't accurate, considering how you (and I) are cooking it. I did some of my own math by weighing an amount of fresh pork belly, roasting it, and then weighing the fat that rendered out, estimating some moisture loss, then subtracting the rendered fat and the moisture weight from the raw roast. It was a pain in the ass and I still don't even know if it's accurate. It's kind of a split-difference between the raw figures and the cooked 'fresh bacon' figures. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject:
Red,
What I'm gonna do is use FitDay on a daily basis just to get a feel for what I'm eating, and what I should eat to bring up my calories. As far as "aiming", I'm just gonna do as many calories as I can, mainly by eating tons of fat. Eat til I puke!
But, I would rather keep a master list of all the food I eat, then I can post it, and we can all work on that data to determine the calories. As you said, you have come up with a more accurate account of calories and ratios for pork belly, so I would rather say "here is what I ate, now let's figure this thing out". _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject:
BTW... I've decided to make my first day of 30 be December 14, 2007 and that would put my last day of 30 as January 12, 2008. That will keep me totally clean through the holidays, which has always been a problem for me. So, jeff, would you like to do this on the same days, so we can encourage each other to eat til we puke?
And, between now and December 14th, I think we should eat as low carb (and salt) as possible, just to make sure there is no extra water weight to lose. In fact, be sure to weigh and measure yourself on the morning of December 14th (and January 13th), before you eat or drink a thing, and after you've emptied your bladder. Otherwise, the warden will have to report you. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject:
Billi-Jean wrote:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
Seriously, it seems that your exercising is the thing that has given you the body you want, and not the low carbing. So, once again, how are we gonna prove it is the diet?
How about some input from the cheerleaders? If they can come up with a unanimous decision, I will abide by whatever they say.
glad you appreciate our input and not just our pompoms!!
Well, I guess I do find it hard to believe that 20 mins exercise a couple of times a week is going to make any difference at all...except maybe to maintain a bit of muscle mass -so if anything wouldn't that just ensure that the results actually show a more accurate picture of whether any actual fat is gained?
I'm confused. If he is "maintaining (or building) muscle mass" by doing HIIT cardio, then that will help him burn more fat. How is that going to give us a more "accurate picture"? I think his HIIT cardio is what sets up the hormonal environment that will burn his body fat, so it is going to totally skew the results of this experiment.
"[Metabolic adaptations resulting from HIIT] may lead to a better lipid utilization in the postexercise state and thus contribute to a greater energy and lipid deficit." In other words, compared to moderate-intensity endurance exercise, high- intensity intermittent exercise causes more calories and fat to be burned following the workout. Citing animal studies, they also said it may be that appetite is suppressed more following intense intervals. (Neither group was placed on a diet.)
jeff, please don't be so fat phobic that you are worried about gaining and getting "out of shape" or "out of condition" if you just lay off this HIIT stuff for 30 days. I think, perhaps, you have found what the real secret to keeping you body lean is, and that is exercise, especially with HIIT. Dan has obviously found it with resistance training. I'm sorry, but I still think this exercise thing is gonna throw this experiment totally off.
Think about the general public, who have had it drilled into their heads that they need to exercise, exercise, exercise. The entire obesity epidemic is blamed on a lack of exercise. It is such a common theme. So, here we are trying to show that it is macro nutrient ratios that is the REAL problem. So, if that is what we are trying to show, I think we need to stick to that, and remove all other variables from this experiment. I'm sorry, but if one can believe there is a "metabolic advantage" to lowering carbs, then why is it such a stretch to think that people seriously do believe that there is a "metabolic advantage" to exercise... especially HIIT exercise.
It's funny that you say, on one hand, that one can eat excess calories and not gain on a VLC diet, which completely flies in the face of everything we've been told about calories in - calories out. YET, you turn right around and say...
jeff wrote:
But, does anybody really think that maybe 20 minutes of exercise 2 times per week is going to keep me from gaining weight if I am taking in 1000-2000 extra calories per day?
Why the hell should they NOT believe this, and instead believe this new paradigm that says by changing macro ratios one will be able to eat all these extra calories and not gain any weight?
Why do you think people should believe it was the ratios and not the exercise? I personally think people will definitely believe it was the exercise, and NOT the ratios, that caused you to maintain your weight. Cuz, that is what they have been brainwashed to believe. So, if you really wanna disprove the calorie theory as we know it, let's stick to calories in (from food) - calories out (from regular metabolism, not from exercise, which could be seen as the magic bullet).
JMHO. Would hate to see you scarf down tons of butter, only to have people say "gee, but wasn't he doing HIIT cardio? THAT is the reason he didn't gain anything! It has NOTHING to do with changing macro ratios". And TRUST ME, that is EXACTLY what they are gonna say. VLC has gotten SUCH a bad rap, right? After all, isn't that why we are doing this experiment in the first place? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:07 am Post subject:
Whoa... so, I was pluggin' stuff into FitDay today, and I was putting in what I've been eating during typical days in November, and low and behold, come to find I've actually been well over 3,500 calories per day, and actually much closer to 4,000 most days, with all the one pound burgers with tons of melted cheese and all the fat poured over the burger, and that liver and animal fat dish I had been eatin' and the pork belly and the brats and smoothies and the eggs fried in lots of tallow topped with cheese, etc. This is a typical pattern for me. When I get off sugar, I do it by eating boat loads of fat, since that helps with carb withdrawals. And, I always have the same thing happen. I stall.
Point is, my weight and body fat have remained absolutely stable. I have been stalled flat. Each time I have jumped on the scale during November, I was always within a pound or so of the same weight and body fat. Now, I am at the same place I was at the beginning of the month, despite eating an excess of about 1,500 calories per day. I should be like 10 pounds up, but I'm not up at all. I have neither gained nor lost a thing. If my calories were lower than my daily requirement, then I would have lost. So, what are the odds I was exactly on. It is not possible. Plus, I know how much animal fat I have been eating. Plenty.
Man, there really is something to this MAD thing... what is that Metabolic Advantage Disease? Hey, I've got it!!! And, I don't want no cure! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:36 am Post subject:
Ok, Dean. You win. No exercise during the experiment. December is a really busy month for me at work, and I recall last year in Dec. I was only able to exercise about once a week anyways. So no big deal, I guess. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:21 am Post subject:
Thanks, jeff. I really think our results will be more accurate, and we won't give any naysayers any wiggle room at all. Did you wanna do this on the same days, Dec 14th to Jan 12th? We can have daily competitions to see who can take in the most calories. We'll be famous!
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
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Just a thought. Plug pork belly into FitDay, and see what I mean. Also, if you cook with lard or tallow, you will get a bunch of fat if you pour all of it over your meat. And, you can melt a lot of butter over skillet seared steak. What I do is take like a half stick of butter, and I cut the pieces and top the searing steak (after I turned it over). Then put a lid on so the butter melts all over the steak, and when you put the steak on your plate, be sure to pour all the melted butter over the steak, then you will have all that butter swimming around on your plate, and you can dip your bites of steak in it. And, make sure to take a spoon and eat all this butter when you are through with your steak. Garlic powder adds a nice flavor to this. 
I've been eating quite a bit of calories from loads of fat, cheese, etc. Been eating very few carbs.
That just MADE MY DAY!!! 
