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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | Thanks, jeff. I really think our results will be more accurate, and we won't give any naysayers any wiggle room at all.  Did you wanna do this on the same days, Dec 14th to Jan 12th? We can have daily competitions to see who can take in the most calories.  We'll be famous!   |
I'm leaning towards still starting on Dec. 1, but we'll see. Maybe I'll do it for 6 weeks so I can keep you company. 
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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It looks like it's still there, but no responses. Dean, how about you ask AC if metabolic advantage applies only to weight loss, or would it also include weight maintenance? Then tell him he'd better get his roller skates laced up!
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm starting to understand how all these people that do low carb always complain of getting into a stall with weight loss. Makes sense. I've BTDT many times and didn't even stop to try to understand why. Now it makes sense. Stepped on the scale again this morning (this is getting to be a bad habit) and my weight is exactly the same as it was yesterday (and all month!), down to the tenth of a pound! And, I ate 3872 calories (81% fat) yesterday... just for practice.
Yes, AC better consider figure skating... with one of those cute little skirts.
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corafan
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting the link. It brought me here, and this looks like a great forum. |
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Dean
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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 Glad you climbed aboard.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | Glad you climbed aboard. |
Yes, corafan, glad you are here! 
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Dean
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Just wanted to report that yesterday I ate at least 1000+ cals, and this morning I found that I'm DOWN almost 2 pounds! 
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Regina
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | Yah, I suppose I will make a good research subject, since I will prove that Eades is correct. I'll prove I can eat a high fat diet and not gain, but not lose either. So, I guess I should do this. But, I am goin' on a restricted calorie diet right after that! |
Hi everyone - I'm going to jump in here....some may know me, some may not - I write the Weight of the Evidence blog and found this site after seeing it posted on Low-Carb Muscle.
Anyway - odds are really high that in the 30-day experiment those over-eating calories and specifically keeping carbohydrate extremely low will not gain weight aligned with the "one pound per 3500-calorie excess" we're told happens due to "calories in-calories out".....the big caveat is carbohydrate in the experimental 30-days --- it MUST be kept low and protein intake MUST not be excessive to requirements for EAA's and gluconeogensis (or you risk elevating insulin enough to store fat).....so shoot for excess calories from fat-fat-fat!
Just wanted to wish all of you doing this well and let y'all know I'm really interested in the outcome! 
ETA: I'd really like to see if someone does an hypercaloric 30-days where the excess is MCFA or coconut oil (that one might actually produce a loss of weight despite a calorie excess!) |
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Alex
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi Regina, very nice of you to visit. Thanks for the input.
Enjoyed your blog many times.  |
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Red
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Regina - nice to have your input. Thanks for checking in! I too have enjoyed your blog. 
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | | Regina - nice to have your input. Thanks for checking in! I too have enjoyed your blog. |
Ditto here, Regina. I have always enjoyed your writing. Welcome aboard the Bus.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | Just wanted to report that yesterday I ate at least 1000+ cals, and this morning I found that I'm DOWN almost 2 pounds! |
I'm tellin ya.......
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Dean, I have something in mind for the experiment that will blow you away. I'm going to try it at least once. If it works, (meaning if I can actually do it), I hope to do it at least once or twice per week. Stay tuned.....
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Dean
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | Dean, I have something in mind for the experiment that will blow you away. I'm going to try it at least once. If it works, (meaning if I can actually do it), I hope to do it at least once or twice per week. Stay tuned..... |
Does this have anything to do with Shawn's visit?
Seriously, please tell.
BTW... just to get in "practice", last night I ate 5 soft boiled eggs with melted butter... a whole stick!
The thing is, my body temp went up so high after that, I was practically sweating.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | jeff wrote: | | Dean, I have something in mind for the experiment that will blow you away. I'm going to try it at least once. If it works, (meaning if I can actually do it), I hope to do it at least once or twice per week. Stay tuned..... |
Does this have anything to do with Shawn's visit?
Seriously, please tell.
BTW... just to get in "practice", last night I ate 5 soft boiled eggs with melted butter... a whole stick!
The thing is, my body temp went up so high after that, I was practically sweating. |
I often break into a sweat while eating.....or is that when I'm thinking of Suzanne's toybox? 
Ok, imagine this. Over 7000 calories and 98% fat. In one day.
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Dean
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | Ok, imagine this. Over 7000 calories and 98% fat. In one day. |
 Would you like some butter to go with your hot melted butter drink?
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | jeff wrote: | | Ok, imagine this. Over 7000 calories and 98% fat. In one day. |
Would you like some butter to go with your hot melted butter drink? |
You have the right idea, but not quite.
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | jeff wrote: | | Ok, imagine this. Over 7000 calories and 98% fat. In one day. |
Would you like some butter to go with your hot melted butter drink? |
Ok, make that almost 8000 calories, and still 98% fat.
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Dean
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: |
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three pounds of butter is 9,757 calories and 99% fat!
So drink up!
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Red
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff, tell us the rest of your plan!
I had about 2/3 cup of almonds the other day at a party, stupidly, and now my weight is up a pound. But strict no carb will bring it back down.
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | Jeff, tell us the rest of your plan!
I had about 2/3 cup of almonds the other day at a party, stupidly, and now my weight is up a pound. But strict no carb will bring it back down. |
Were the almonds salted? Some of it could be water retention from salt. And most of the rest is probably glycogen and the related water. How is your weight overall from when you started? A while back you said you were actually down a bit.
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Jeff, tell us the rest of your plan! |
I think I'll make you all wait until I actually do it.
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like you some of your opinions about the Dean's Heavy Whipping Cream that I use. What are the chances that this stuff is actually carb-free? The label says:
For one tablespoon:
total calories 50
calories from fat 50
carbohydrate 0
protein <1g
I ask because I plan on drinking alot of this stuff for the experiment.
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Red
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | Red wrote: | Jeff, tell us the rest of your plan!
I had about 2/3 cup of almonds the other day at a party, stupidly, and now my weight is up a pound. But strict no carb will bring it back down. |
Were the almonds salted? Some of it could be water retention from salt. And most of the rest is probably glycogen and the related water. How is your weight overall from when you started? A while back you said you were actually down a bit. |
They were salted. I'm sure it's salt and water retention. My has fluctuated a half pound here and there since starting, so add in the pound I lost and now the pound I've gained and I'm exactly where I was when I started this thing. Unsurprsing!
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | | jeff wrote: | | Red wrote: | Jeff, tell us the rest of your plan!
I had about 2/3 cup of almonds the other day at a party, stupidly, and now my weight is up a pound. But strict no carb will bring it back down. |
Were the almonds salted? Some of it could be water retention from salt. And most of the rest is probably glycogen and the related water. How is your weight overall from when you started? A while back you said you were actually down a bit. |
They were salted. I'm sure it's salt and water retention. My has fluctuated a half pound here and there since starting, so add in the pound I lost and now the pound I've gained and I'm exactly where I was when I started this thing. Unsurprsing! |
Right. Not surprising at all to me.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | I'd like you some of your opinions about the Dean's Heavy Whipping Cream that I use. What are the chances that this stuff is actually carb-free? The label says:
For one tablespoon:
total calories 50
calories from fat 50
carbohydrate 0
protein <1g
I ask because I plan on drinking alot of this stuff for the experiment. |
And coffee, too. Fitday says it contains a small amount of carbs. But 2 other sources I've checked both say 0. 
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Red
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Both Fitday and nutritiondata.com list a nutritional content, but the USDA has updated their info since Fitday and Fitday is lagging behind a bit. Nutritiondata has the most updated info from the USDA charts, which is 0.25 g each of protein and carb for an 8-fl-oz cup of regular coffee brewed with tap water.
I think that your cream info is slightly fishy. Less than one gram of protein means that at least part of a calorie should be from protein. Plus, cream has to have some carbs in it, even if only a very small amount, as there is still a lactose content. Some rounding is definitely going on there and it's probably in the total calories. The lowest-carb cream I've found is 0.3 g protein, 0.39 g carbohydrate, 5.49 g fat and '50 calories' (which it can't be, if you add up the macros), per tablespoon. The calories should be about 52.2 per tablespoon, but they're rounded down to 50. Still very low. But I'm not sure I'd drink a cup of it in one sitting, as that's 6.4 g carb, right there.
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | Both Fitday and nutritiondata.com list a nutritional content, but the USDA has updated their info since Fitday and Fitday is lagging behind a bit. Nutritiondata has the most updated info from the USDA charts, which is 0.25 g each of protein and carb for an 8-fl-oz cup of regular coffee brewed with tap water.
I think that your cream info is slightly fishy. Less than one gram of protein means that at least part of a calorie should be from protein. Plus, cream has to have some carbs in it, even if only a very small amount, as there is still a lactose content. Some rounding is definitely going on there and it's probably in the total calories. The lowest-carb cream I've found is 0.3 g protein, 0.39 g carbohydrate, 5.49 g fat and '50 calories' (which it can't be, if you add up the macros), per tablespoon. The calories should be about 52.2 per tablespoon, but they're rounded down to 50. Still very low. But I'm not sure I'd drink a cup of it in one sitting, as that's 6.4 g carb, right there. |
Ok, I just went to Dean Foods web site and they have info there. At the website it says 0 for protein, not the <1g that it says on the carton. So who knows...... I may to to rethink my strategy for the challenge.
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Red
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Again, I think they're taking liberties with rounding. Cream that has 100% of it's calories from fat wouldn't be cream; it would be butter.
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | | Again, I think they're taking liberties with rounding. Cream that has 100% of it's calories from fat wouldn't be cream; it would be butter. |
I do realize it's probably not 100% fat. I'm just wondering if the carbs are enough to worry about if taken in "large" quantities.
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | | Again, I think they're taking liberties with rounding. Cream that has 100% of it's calories from fat wouldn't be cream; it would be butter. |
Ok, more butter and less cream it is!!!
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Red
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand...
You seemed to have no trouble using that same cream as a large portion of your calories last time around. You could always just do a couple of drinks of half cream/half hot water mixture with lots of butter melted into it. Then you get added fat from the butter, but the more of the drinkability of cream.
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Dean
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | Red wrote: | | Again, I think they're taking liberties with rounding. Cream that has 100% of it's calories from fat wouldn't be cream; it would be butter. |
I do realize it's probably not 100% fat. I'm just wondering if the carbs are enough to worry about if taken in "large" quantities. |
jeff, I think you just gave away your secret plan.
And, as far as that cream having carbs. Our company would NEVER allow any carbs in anything! We have a strict policy of removing ALL carbs from everything we produce. So, drink up, jeff!
Seriously, I think it's back to my suggestion...
| Dean wrote: | | Would you like some butter to go with your hot melted butter drink? |
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Dean
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yesterday I ate about 500 more calories than I needed.
Carbs were almost nonexistent. Animal fat was high.
Today, I'm DOWN another half pound!
And that roll around my midsection is starting to shrink!
Perhaps I should rethink this whole Corn Oil Diet?
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | On the other hand...
You seemed to have no trouble using that same cream as a large portion of your calories last time around. You could always just do a couple of drinks of half cream/half hot water mixture with lots of butter melted into it. Then you get added fat from the butter, but the more of the drinkability of cream. |
I like your way of thinking.
Dean, did the "large quantities" give it away?
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'll use the cream. I'll just have to keep the amounts "moderate".
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jeff
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | Yesterday I ate about 500 more calories than I needed.
Carbs were almost nonexistent. Animal fat was high.
Today, I'm DOWN another half pound!
And that roll around my midsection is starting to shrink!
Perhaps I should rethink this whole Corn Oil Diet?
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Perhaps all those futile cycles and whatnot use more calories than what the food contain? Just a thought.
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Red
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm... that doesn't really make too much sense in a real-life setting - losing weight while eating in excess? Maybe a pound or two of fluctuation, as we discussed... but real genuine fat loss from over-zealous futile cycles? Imagine if primitive people eating an appropriate meat diet just continued to lose weight even in a scenario of over-eating? They wouldn't survive. And Dean isn't overweight, so for him to be losing weight with excess calories is strange.
I think it's more likely that Dean's carbs are just lower now than they were before. Dean have you been indulging in fewer coconut/berry smoothies in the last few days and focusing more on meat?
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Dean
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | | And Dean isn't overweight |
But I am, Red, I am!
I've definitely got some fat to lose. A few pounds anyway.
| jeff wrote: | | Perhaps all those futile cycles and whatnot use more calories than what the food contain? Just a thought. |
Can anyone say IF and glucagon?
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Dan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Try coffee and a cup of coconut oil, Jeff.
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Red
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ew, barf.
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Billi-Jean
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | Dean wrote: | Yesterday I ate about 500 more calories than I needed.
Carbs were almost nonexistent. Animal fat was high.
Today, I'm DOWN another half pound!
And that roll around my midsection is starting to shrink!
Perhaps I should rethink this whole Corn Oil Diet?
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Perhaps all those futile cycles and whatnot use more calories than what the food contain? Just a thought. |
We probably also have to keep in mind that it's very difficult to pinpoint or say definitively what daily caloric intake our body actually 'needs'...I mean, I know we tend to guess at the amount by saying we think we've consumed say 500 cals or 1000 cals 'in excess', mainly because we all have anecdotal experiences that tend to support the number of cals that we individually lose or gain or maintain our weights at...
But, can't that number actually vary quite significantly from day to day and even season to season, etc. due to all sorts of external and internal variables? How about with stress, intense study and other such factors?
Maybe, since, as we've already seen with the debunking of the 'calorie is a calorie' theory that the body and its metabolic processes is not machine-like, our daily, weekly etc. caloric needs (and even how those calories are used) can fluctuate widely enough to account for at least some of our experienced 'anomalies' with regards to whether we gain, lose or maintain our weight. |
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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Born: 3 January 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, BJ... but that sounds like some sorta wild conjecture... no kinda talk that would be allowed in any metabolic ward, that's for sure!
But YES... it's what I have said many times. It's not just calories IN, it's mostly calories OUT... and they vary very much.
So... 3500 calories in may not mean a pound, or make even an ounce of sense! At least outside of a metabolic ward!
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- Jimi Hendrix
Every day you'll see the dust
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Born: 3 January 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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We all live in a metabolic ward,
metabolic ward, metabolic ward,
We all live in a metabolic ward,
metabolic ward, metabolic ward.
And our friends are all aboard,
Many more of them live next door,
And the band begins to play.
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When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix
Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus! |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 6067
Born: 10 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan wrote: | | Try coffee and a cup of coconut oil, Jeff. |
I'd give it a shot. Dean, would coconut oil be allowed? Not being an animal product and all. I actually did use coconut oil in my previous experiments, but nut be the cup.
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 5143
Born: 3 January 2010
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | | Dean, would coconut oil be allowed? Not being an animal product and all. |
jeff, I don't have a problem with it... but, good luck getting it past security!
  
The Bus Boot Babes are all guarding the entrance to this metabolic ward!
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When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix
Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus! |
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Regina
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | I'd like you some of your opinions about the Dean's Heavy Whipping Cream that I use. What are the chances that this stuff is actually carb-free? The label says:
For one tablespoon:
total calories 50
calories from fat 50
carbohydrate 0
protein <1g
I ask because I plan on drinking alot of this stuff for the experiment. |
1-cup of heavy cream (fluid) has 3,434-calories (as per USDA nutrient database) and:
88g fat
6.6g carbohydrate
4.9g protein
If you do use heavy cream....I strongly suggest you choose an organic brand (preferably from grass-fed cows if you can find it) since the fat profile is markedly different between grain and grass fed cows - and at the level you're considering each day, it may be in your best interest as a guy to avoid the residuals of the hormones and antibiotics they give the grain-fed feedlot dairy cows! JMO for what it's worth - oh - and the grass-fed dairy also has a better omega-3:6 ratio too! |
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Regina
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | Imagine if primitive people eating an appropriate meat diet just continued to lose weight even in a scenario of over-eating? They wouldn't survive. And Dean isn't overweight, so for him to be losing weight with excess calories is strange.
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You're right about continued weight loss in excess calories being unsustainable for a species.....but there does exist in the data (even, hehehe, metabolic ward studies) weight loss while consuming excess calories over a period of time. We're not talking massive weight loss, just weight loss when it should be gain if calories in-calories out is the black-and-white cut and dry determinant of weight gain or loss. |
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Dan
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 207
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| ControlledCarb wrote: | 1-cup of heavy cream (fluid) has 3,434-calories (as per USDA nutrient database) and:
88g fat
6.6g carbohydrate
4.9g protein
If you do use heavy cream....I strongly suggest you choose an organic brand (preferably from grass-fed cows if you can find it) since the fat profile is markedly different between grain and grass fed cows - and at the level you're considering each day, it may be in your best interest as a guy to avoid the residuals of the hormones and antibiotics they give the grain-fed feedlot dairy cows! JMO for what it's worth - oh - and the grass-fed dairy also has a better omega-3:6 ratio too! |
Er...I think you're confusing a cup and a QUART. A cup of heavy cream is 821 calories.
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 5143
Born: 3 January 2010
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: | Hmm... that doesn't really make too much sense in a real-life setting - losing weight while eating in excess? Maybe a pound or two of fluctuation, as we discussed... but real genuine fat loss from over-zealous futile cycles? Imagine if primitive people eating an appropriate meat diet just continued to lose weight even in a scenario of over-eating? They wouldn't survive. And Dean isn't overweight, so for him to be losing weight with excess calories is strange.
I think it's more likely that Dean's carbs are just lower now than they were before. Dean have you been indulging in fewer coconut/berry smoothies in the last few days and focusing more on meat? |
Red, this may be fluctuations, who knows. We shall see a lot more once the real MAM Experiment takes off.
I have only had coconut custard once or twice since the beginning of November. Those do contain some berries. But, other than that, my carbs have been really low. I wonder just how low they must be to lose while consuming excess fat calories.
The main thing is, I have been doing a lot of IFing. For instance, yesterday I was so busy that I just didn't get around to eating until after 10pm. Then, when I did eat, I had no appetite, so I basically forced down three brats, for a total of about 800 calories. With my coffee and cream, I probably did about 1500 or so yesterday. But, today, I ate about 4,000 calories. I have been spending most of my time just sitting. So much shit to get done!  So, my calorie needs should be pretty low. Thing is, while fasting, one must have extremely low insulin, and glucagon must be up to help break down body fat for fuel. Then, if you do eat high fat, insulin will still be low, so then those futile cycles kick in to lose the extra ATP that is being created by your mitochondria. Makes sense to me.
Anyway. We shall see what goes on when I start really measuring things.
BTW... down another pound today.
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix
Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus! |
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