Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:04 am Post subject:
Kim wrote:
Dean wrote:
So is Eades wrong? Can a person actually lose body fat while eating excess calories? I understand that they won't gain anything, but I thought it was not possible to lose unless one created a caloric deficit.
I will have to get FitDay setup and get ready to go on my part of this experiment. So, jeff, are ya gettin' ready to plunge in with me?
Maybe Eades is right and wrong. Maybe those people weren't gaining any weight but maybe if they had dropped their carbs even lower close to 0 they would have lost.
Kim
That's a good hypothesis. And one we can certainly test out, since I still have this bicycle tire that I wanna get rid of!
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject:
It is difficult to overeat by 1000 cals per day, when you are eating only fat and protein. When I did this before I was having to eat butter, cream cheese, and coconut oil by the spoonfuls to get enough calories in. I could not handle eating more meat and fat. I had to go to pure fat because there was not enough room in my stomach for more meat. I was also having to do this when not even the sliightest bit hungry. Overeating in this way is alot harder than it looks! _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Come on, jeff. You can do 30 days if I can. I'm a fricken sugar addict, and I'm willing to do it. I think we could probably convince Rich, Jake, Red, BJ, Dave, Heather, and others to jump in with us.
Ok, Dean. I'll give it a go. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Ok, Dean. I'll give it a go.
So, how should we do this?
I have been messing around with FitDay to see what foods have a lot of calories. Pork belly has a ton, with over 90% from fat.
We could eat raw steaks (barely seared) and top them with tons of butter. Have them swimming in it. And make the fattiest beef burgers, and pour all the fat over them after cooking in a skillet.
So, what types of food should we include? Any animal muscle/fat and eggs for sure. But what else? Should we restrict dairy to just butter and heavy cream? And, what about seasonings? It might be easier with than without. BTDT.
And, what about exercise? I personally think we should not do any, since it might complicate the calculations, although FitDay does have a way to plug that stuff in. Maybe we could just post all our food (and activities?) and let someone else enter all this stuff into FitDay. Anybody wanna volunteer for that? God, how I hate FitDay. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff wrote:
Ok, Dean. I'll give it a go.
So, how should we do this?
I have been messing around with FitDay to see what foods have a lot of calories. Pork belly has a ton, with over 90% from fat.
We could eat raw steaks (barely seared) and top them with tons of butter. Have them swimming in it. And make the fattiest beef burgers, and pour all the fat over them after cooking in a skillet.
So, what types of food should we include? Any animal muscle/fat and eggs for sure. But what else? Should we restrict dairy to just butter and heavy cream? And, what about seasonings? It might be easier with than without. BTDT.
And, what about exercise? I personally think we should not do any, since it might complicate the calculations, although FitDay does have a way to plug that stuff in. Maybe we could just post all our food (and activities?) and let someone else enter all this stuff into FitDay. Anybody wanna volunteer for that? God, how I hate FitDay.
I'd really hate to give up exercise completely. I've worked really hard to be in the shape I'm in. I'd be willing to keep it to a minimum......say no more than 20-30 minutes, 2-3 times per week. I could also eat a few hundred extra calories on those days. No dairy with the exception of heavy cream and butter sounds ok. I'll try to do without cheese. (Just don't tell the Governor. ) I think seasonings are fine. Things like garlic, herbs and spices. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
I'd really hate to give up exercise completely.
Yah, well seeing how your only 31 miles from Suzanne's toybox, I completely understand! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff wrote:
I'd really hate to give up exercise completely.
Yah, well seeing how your only 31 miles from Suzanne's toybox, I completely understand!
It could be a trick for you to get me to slow down so you can catch up and beat me to that toybox. If my memory serves me, there's plenty in Suzanne's toybox for both of us. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:49 am Post subject:
Billi-Jean wrote:
...you're getting too darn close to Suzanne's toybox -it's making you distracted!!
You've got that right!!! Just the thought of a cheerleader and Suzanne's toybox.....well, it's almost too much. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:40 am Post subject:
Billi-Jean wrote:
Hey guys, this is COOL!!
It's going to be a fantastic challenge -I'm already looking forward to it!! (er, from the comfort of the cheerleaders' corner, of course )
BJ, this isn't a Challenge... it's an Experiment. So, you need to don your lab coat and get out those instruments... and... uh... what were you saying about Heather's whip? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:54 am Post subject:
oh dear, now Dean's getting distracted
Experiment huh? Um, I think my lab coat's gonna be at the cleaners that month -and anyway, I think I'd look better with the pompoms!
The very thought of trying to down 4000 odd calories... -this little lab rat ain't that brave yet!!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:58 am Post subject:
Dan wrote:
One of the most aggravating things I've learned in my weight loss journey is that you can't tell reliably what you weigh or what that weight is. Water, fat, muscle, a weeks' worth of dairy stuck in the bowels(ick)...
My omron fat tester varies wildly, my caliper charts are probably only accurate for a person 4" shorter than me, etc., etc.
Dan... that is frustrating! But, for me, right now, it is easy to tell that I have body fat, since my abs are not flat. I hate that stuff. I want it to be gone! poof!
jeff wrote:
It could be that you are at a point where your body wants to be, even though you have this excess roll around your middle. Perhaps the rest of your body is very lean, and your body is happy with the total amount of fat that you have. Just some thoughts.
jeff, I really wish that were true, but even then, this "excess roll" is not good. I have lost it before, eating paleo, which at that time was pretty lean game meat and VLC veggies, and probably low calories with lots of exercise. It's fat alright, and I don't like it.
It's just that I have always wanted to get good abs, but always strayed into the sugar before I could get there. I'm just not satisfied, I guess. I'm curious if this excess fat is gonna just keep adding fat to me. I have not been zero carb, like Heather, so that may be the problem. But, damn, how low does one need to go? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:25 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
I'd really hate to give up exercise completely. I've worked really hard to be in the shape I'm in.
So, you do think we are gonna gain body fat!
You are worried about getting out of shape. I am worried about not getting into shape. I have this damn tire to lose.
Well, if we do exercise, won't we be messing with that hormonal environment? That's my only concern. It will appear that the exercise is what is doing the trick, not the low to zero carb. Then AC is gonna say... "ah, ha! See, I told you so". Anything but to hear AC say that!
Seriously, it seems that your exercising is the thing that has given you the body you want, and not the low carbing. So, once again, how are we gonna prove it is the diet? By removing all the variables, except the diet. jeff, it's only 30 days, and we will be able to take off the weight we put on, no problem. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Europe Joined: 06 Jun 2007 Posts: 147 Gender: Female
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:46 am Post subject:
"...We're the team from the Mighty Bus
Sugar SUX, Sugar SUX!
You will win if you stick with us
Sugar SUX, Sugar SUX...!!!"
Waving pompoms and all , you can do this, guys!!
I'm going to stick with the caloric deficiency theory for now, but I'm sure gonna miss the porkbelly , but I might be able to sneak it in every now and then .
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff wrote:
I'd really hate to give up exercise completely. I've worked really hard to be in the shape I'm in.
So, you do think we are gonna gain body fat!
You are worried about getting out of shape. I am worried about not getting into shape. I have this damn tire to lose.
Well, if we do exercise, won't we be messing with that hormonal environment? That's my only concern. It will appear that the exercise is what is doing the trick, not the low to zero carb. Then AC is gonna say... "ah, ha! See, I told you so". Anything but to hear AC say that!
Seriously, it seems that your exercising is the thing that has given you the body you want, and not the low carbing. So, once again, how are we gonna prove it is the diet? By removing all the variables, except the diet. jeff, it's only 30 days, and we will be able to take off the weight we put on, no problem.
No, it's not that I worry about gaining weight if I don't exercise. I just don't want to lose the level of physical conditioning that I have acheived.
Quote:
Well, if we do exercise, won't we be messing with that hormonal environment? That's my only concern.
But I've been exercising all along, so the hormonal environmet will be the same. I do plan on exercising, but less than normal. I don't see it as a problem for the experiment. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
I just don't want to lose the level of physical conditioning that I have acheived.
jeff, trust me, you are not going to lose any "level of physical conditioning" in 30 days.
jeff wrote:
But I've been exercising all along, so the hormonal environment will be the same. I do plan on exercising, but less than normal. I don't see it as a problem for the experiment.
I think it is the problem. Cuz, I think there are many who point to all your exercising as the reason you are able to keep excess weight off. And, if you keep exercising then you will need to eat more, which means it will be that much harder to get in all those extra calories. There are just so many factors to weight and body fat gains and losses. I just know that is like the number one thing that modern health points to. They say people are too sedentary, and that is why they are overweight/fat.
Dan wrote:
jeff wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that if a person keeps carbs to a bare minimum, no fat will be stored, even with an extra 1000-2000 calories per day.
Jeff, unless you're a mutant, you'll gain weight doing that for a month.
And if you are such a mutant, I'm envious as hell.
I have to agree with Dan. I think we are going to gain weight/body fat. 2000 extra calories a day for 30 straight days is going to add body fat to anyone's body. I think you should prove us all wrong. I think you should take one little month off your normal routine and eat tons of animal fat every day, keeping carbs to a bare minimum as you say. I would bet anything you are gonna gain weight. And, I am willing to do it with you, even though I would really like to start exercising and cutting calories, which I know I need to do to lose this excess body fat in my mid section, which is a really bad place to have it.
So, I appeal to you. Let's really do this thing in the most controlled manner we can, so we can really see what is going on. Let's remove as many obstacles (variables) as we can. There are so many factors to weight/body fat gains and losses. It is a very individual thing, and is dependent on so many hormonal reactions, etc. But, as Dan has said...
Dan wrote:
The calorie theory may not be perfect, but it gives you a baseline to work with.
I'm sorry, but I totally agree with him.
There might be a slight MA, but in the grand scheme of things it's not even worth paying attention to. One has to be mindful of calories, especially if they want to lose body fat.
2000 X 30 = 60,000 / 3500 = 17 pounds. That would prove it one way or the other. In order to eat that many calories, you cannot exercise, cuz, believe me, it's gonna be hard enough to get in all those extra calories as it is.
jeff, just hurry up and get to Suzanne's toybox. After that you won't wanna run off for awhile. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject:
According to my stats, I've consumed 13650 excess calories in the last 13 days, and so I should have gained 3.9 lbs of fat and I haven't gained anything on the scale and my body doesn't feel any fatter, whatsoever. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject:
Great, Red!
Thanks for keeping us posted. Keep up the good work.
Will be interesting to see what happens once you've done 30 days. Any chance of getting those calories higher?
BTW, are you off the dairy (except butter)? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject:
Red wrote:
According to my stats, I've consumed 13650 excess calories in the last 13 days, and so I should have gained 3.9 lbs of fat and I haven't gained anything on the scale and my body doesn't feel any fatter, whatsoever.
Wow! Oh boy the gauntlet's down now!!
Red, that's amazing...so you're on about 2400 cals per day with protein kept to around 60g still, is that right? If so then you'd be getting around 1000 cals per day more than what you usually maintain at...quite a lot of extra cals for a female...
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject:
I'm not sure I could eat any more than I have been. I did have two days where I had zero appetite and couldn't manage quite as much, so that brought my average down a bit. I'll try to keep stuffing it in. Yes, I'm still off dairy. The very first day I had goat yogurt, but it bothered my stomach, so I haven't had any dairy, aside from butter, since then. Oh, and I have been having one or two drinks here and there. Usually scotch and not more than 2 oz. I'm not trying to lose weight on this experiment, so I didn't think too much of having the alcohol. It's nice to know that even with all those excess calories, I can still have a drink or two and not gain as long as carbs are under 10 g.
My average calories before starting were 1348. Other averages were Fat: 95 g Carb:7 g Protein: 100g Alcohol: 9.6 g
I was maintaining at those amounts. I didn't always drink, but I sometimes did and so there you have the 9.6 g.
My averages now are: Calories: 2390 Fat: 209.5g Carb: 12 g (from eggs and black coffee, mainly, plus that one day of veggies) Protein: 80g Alcohol: 19 g _________________ Red
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:30 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
I have to agree with Dan. I think we are going to gain weight/body fat. 2000 extra calories a day for 30 straight days is going to add body fat to anyone's body.
Have you read Taubes' new book?
Dean wrote:
I think it is the problem. Cuz, I think there are many who point to all your exercising as the reason you are able to keep excess weight off.
But, does anybody really think that maybe 20 minutes of exercise 2 times per week is going to keep me from gaining weight if I am taking in 1000-2000 extra calories per day? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:44 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
2000 X 30 = 60,000 / 3500 = 17 pounds. That would prove it one way or the other.
ok, let's think about this ahead of time. Suppose we eat enough calories so the we "should" gain, say 17 pounds. What would we say about the results if we gain, say, 2 pounds. Or 5 pounds. Or 10 pounds. "Minor" fluctuations can happen because of no apparent reason. Perhaps a very small gain(or loss) should be viewed as now change? _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:47 am Post subject:
Red wrote:
According to my stats, I've consumed 13650 excess calories in the last 13 days, and so I should have gained 3.9 lbs of fat and I haven't gained anything on the scale and my body doesn't feel any fatter, whatsoever.
Dean and Dan: Do you think that something will happen with Red to make her start storing fat in the second 2 weeks that wasn't happening in the first 13 days? Twice I overate enough to gain more than 2 pounds in a week. I did not gain. Red has overeaten enough if 13 days where she should have gained almost 4 pounds. She has not. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:57 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Seriously, it seems that your exercising is the thing that has given you the body you want, and not the low carbing. So, once again, how are we gonna prove it is the diet?
How about some input from the cheerleaders? If they can come up with a unanimous decision, I will abide by whatever they say. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 585 Born: 11 September 1970 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:50 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
Seriously, it seems that your exercising is the thing that has given you the body you want, and not the low carbing. So, once again, how are we gonna prove it is the diet?
How about some input from the cheerleaders? If they can come up with a unanimous decision, I will abide by whatever they say.
glad you appreciate our input and not just our pompoms!!
Well, I guess I do find it hard to believe that 20 mins exercise a couple of times a week is going to make any difference at all...except maybe to maintain a bit of muscle mass -so if anything wouldn't that just ensure that the results actually show a more accurate picture of whether any actual fat is gained?
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:55 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Red wrote:
According to my stats, I've consumed 13650 excess calories in the last 13 days, and so I should have gained 3.9 lbs of fat and I haven't gained anything on the scale and my body doesn't feel any fatter, whatsoever.
Dean and Dan: Do you think that something will happen with Red to make her start storing fat in the second 2 weeks that wasn't happening in the first 13 days? Twice I overate enough to gain more than 2 pounds in a week. I did not gain. Red has overeaten enough if 13 days where she should have gained almost 4 pounds. She has not.
No change or now change or pocket change, 3.9 lbs is, as you yourself said, not significant enough one way or the other, just as your 2 lbs that ONE week could not be viewed as significant.
jeff wrote:
What would we say about the results if we gain, say, 2 pounds. Or 5 pounds. Or 10 pounds. "Minor" fluctuations can happen because of no apparent reason. Perhaps a very small gain(or loss) should be viewed as now change?
As you yourself call them "minor fluctuations". And, I totally agree.
And, that is the reason I have wanted to do something more profound, like 5,000 calories per day. That would probably be about 20 pounds in a month. So, if that's how much one gained, then that would pretty much wrap it up for the Metabolic Advantage Movement, and it's sinister leader, Dr. Eades. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:00 am Post subject:
jeff wrote:
But, does anybody really think that maybe 20 minutes of exercise 2 times per week is going to keep me from gaining weight if I am taking in 1000-2000 extra calories per day?
Trust me. Someone, somewhere is gonna write a book about it! It'll be the latest fad! _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:07 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff wrote:
Red wrote:
According to my stats, I've consumed 13650 excess calories in the last 13 days, and so I should have gained 3.9 lbs of fat and I haven't gained anything on the scale and my body doesn't feel any fatter, whatsoever.
Dean and Dan: Do you think that something will happen with Red to make her start storing fat in the second 2 weeks that wasn't happening in the first 13 days? Twice I overate enough to gain more than 2 pounds in a week. I did not gain. Red has overeaten enough if 13 days where she should have gained almost 4 pounds. She has not.
No change or now change or pocket change, 3.9 lbs is, as you yourself said, not significant enough one way or the other, just as your 2 lbs that ONE week could not be viewed as significant.
Well, I'm going to carry this out for the full 30 days, but I'd say 13 days is a significant start, for absolutely no weight gain and no gain in my measurements for 1000 extra calories a day. You can't have it both ways, Dean. You can't say 'calories count - oh, but only if it's at least 2000 in excess.' If calories count, then my 13,000 excess calories should be just as meaningful as 26,000 excess calories - they should just show a lesser gain. Even with a 300 calorie/day metabolic advantage, 1000 calories should still produce a gain. They're still in excess and should have shown some sort of increase in my bf.
We'll see. I'm staying impartial right now and really just doing this out of curiosity and to rev up my metabolism. I started it before I even read about you suggesting this challenge, actually. I think it's not a good idea to restrict calories and diet consistently for too long as it can slow you down and is hard on your body. It's good to eat plentifully once in a while in random bursts. That's why I'm doing this.
So far, my results are leading me to believe that my metabolism can handle a significant number of excess calories as long as carbs are consistently low. Hell, I've had some days that were close to 3500 calories and still didn't gain the next day. Losing bodyfat with this level of calories? I doubt it. But maintaining? But maybe I'll magically put on 8.6 lbs in the second two weeks. Actually, it would have to be 10.1 lbs., considering my starting weight. _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:19 am Post subject:
But, is it possible that you lost some water weight? Or muscle? And, therefore you gained some fat? Or maybe you gained muscle and lost fat? I don't know. I'm just thinking there has to be some pathway to store fat (or muscle or something) when one eats more. But, as I said earlier in this thread, perhaps everything gets used up when eating like our ancestors. I really have no idea, just throwin' out conventional theories. I'm wanting to try this myself. Just sorta scared to do it. But, I'll give it a go to see what happens. Perhaps this will only work for some people, and only for certain times or conditions. Who knows? I really have no idea what goes on inside the black box. And, I sorta doubt if anyone really does. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:34 am Post subject:
Red wrote:
I'd say 13 days is a significant start, for absolutely no weight gain and no gain in my measurements for 1000 extra calories a day. You can't have it both ways, Dean. You can't say 'calories count - oh, but only if it's at least 2000 in excess.'
It was jeff who suggested these amounts could be seen as "minor fluctuations". I agreed, saying more profound results (like 20 lb gains or losses) would make things more certain.
jeff wrote:
What would we say about the results if we gain, say, 2 pounds. Or 5 pounds. Or 10 pounds. "Minor" fluctuations can happen because of no apparent reason. Perhaps a very small gain(or loss) should be viewed as now change?
I have no idea one way or the other. I throw out conventional theories just to play devils advocate, I suppose. In the end, my philosophy is all of it is theory, and all of it is subject to change. The only real truth is our own empirical experiences, which can be explained in multiple ways, yet are much more real existentially than any theory.
Sorry if I came across as certain about this one way or the other. I'm really not.
Dean wrote:
I have to agree with Dan. I think we are going to gain weight/body fat. 2000 extra calories a day for 30 straight days is going to add body fat to anyone's body.
I guess what I should have said is I hypothesize we are going to gain. Truth is, I have no idea. How could I? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:50 am Post subject:
Red wrote:
So far, my results are leading me to believe that my metabolism can handle a significant number of excess calories as long as carbs are consistently low. Hell, I've had some days that were close to 3500 calories and still didn't gain the next day.
That's great, Red! I'm happy for ya. I've seen where ZCing and IFing have improved my metabolism significantly. I've also seen where eating garbage for an extended period of time plays havoc on it. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
How does that look? Any thoughts or comments? That would give me enough calories so that I should gain about 13 pounds. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
It was jeff who suggested these amounts could be seen as "minor fluctuations". I agreed, saying more profound results (like 20 lb gains or losses) would make things more certain.
I do believe that minor gains or losses could be insignificant. There are lots of things that go on in our bodies that can cause us to gain or lose a couple of pounds. But, not gaining in the face of 1000 excess calories per day does seem pretty significant to me. There are not too many things that could explain that. Calories are either used for energy, stored as fat(or to build muscle, or other tissue I suppose, or somehow disposed of. That's about it. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Quote:
It was jeff who suggested these amounts could be seen as "minor fluctuations". I agreed, saying more profound results (like 20 lb gains or losses) would make things more certain.
I do believe that minor gains or losses could be insignificant. There are lots of things that go on in our bodies that can cause us to gain or lose a couple of pounds. But, not gaining in the face of 1000 excess calories per day does seem pretty significant to me. There are not too many things that could explain that. Calories are either used for energy, stored as fat(or to build muscle, or other tissue I suppose, or somehow disposed of. That's about it.
jeff,
If gaining or losing up to 10 lbs is not significant, as you said, then why would not gaining be significant? I'm totally confused. We are talking about a continuum here, right? That would be -10 to +10. Since 0 falls right in the middle of that continuum, then that would make it an insignificant event. For statistical purposes, it would. That range is what we would consider insignificant. The other range is extra calories, which you have already defined as 1000-2000. So, those 1000 extra calories fall at the lowest end of that range. So, how could this be significant?
I'm not saying it is an insignificant event in and of itself. I think it is a wonderful thing that Red is having these responses in her own experiments on her own WOE. But, for purposes that you have described, I was only saying it was insignificant within that framework.
I think we are getting mixed up here, about what I was saying. Hell, I think I am getting mixed up!
Within the context of this MAM Experiment, we have to determine (as you clearly stated) what constitutes significant versus insignificant results. I think that is what you were trying to establish when you said...
jeff wrote:
What would we say about the results if we gain, say, 2 pounds. Or 5 pounds. Or 10 pounds. "Minor" fluctuations can happen because of no apparent reason. Perhaps a very small gain(or loss) should be viewed as now change?
I think you were simply trying to establish some sort of parameters for this experiment.
If we are all doing our own little experiments, and coming up with our own little conclusions about whatever we think about whatever, then this really ceases to be any type of experiment that will disprove any theory. And, that is not meant to belittle Red's or jeff's accomplishments or discoveries or anything. I think it is great that they are figuring things out for themselves. But, that is only going to apply to them, and cannot be generalized to everyone.
We all generalize. I do it myself all the time. It is natural to want to figure things out for the general population. But, perhaps it is not possible. Just a thought. Maybe all these theories are worthless when we try to apply them to the general population, and say that all people will get x results if they do y.
I would still like to do a controlled experiment with whoever wants to do it. But, we will need to establish some parameters and stick to them, in order to make some sense out of the data. jeff, are you still interested in that? I think if two of us do the same thing, and we come up with similar results, we can possibly start to make some generalizations that make a little sense. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject:
OK, for the next two weeks, I'm going to try to eat even more calories. I don't know how much, but, by Jove, if I have to start drinking melted fat, I'll do it! _________________ Red
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Calories are either used for energy, stored as fat(or to build muscle, or other tissue I suppose, or somehow disposed of. That's about it.
Food calories are a measure of the potential energy in the food. Food that is eaten simply supplies substrates that are used in the production of ATP. ATP is the molecule that then supplies the energy needed to do work in the body at the cellular level. So measuring calories in food is a tricky thing. And measuring calories in the use of this food is even more tricky. Calories are not things, calories are like miles or meters, it's a unit of measurement. It ultimately is supposed to be a measurement of the energy that will be used by the body. To say 3500 calories = 1 pound is an extremely simplistic way of looking at it. But, it's just a way to help people control their food intake and remain at a certain weight. It says that the measurement of potential energy in a certain food will end up being converted to a measurement of body fat or muscle or whatever. A huge simplification, because the steps that go on between that bite of turkey and that roll of excess fat around one's mid section are so fricken complex that it boggles every scientist's mind, believe me. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
I think you were simply trying to establish some sort of parameters for this experiment.
Yes, that is exactly what my intent was. Also, I did not mean to imply that 10 lbs would be insingnificant. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe 2 or 3. I was merely asking what conclusions would we draw from each of those potential results. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff wrote:
Calories are either used for energy, stored as fat(or to build muscle, or other tissue I suppose, or somehow disposed of. That's about it.
Food calories are a measure of the potential energy in the food. Food that is eaten simply supplies substrates that are used in the production of ATP. ATP is the molecule that then supplies the energy needed to do work in the body at the cellular level. So measuring calories in food is a tricky thing. And measuring calories in the use of this food is even more tricky. Calories are not things, calories are like miles or meters, it's a unit of measurement. It ultimately is supposed to be a measurement of the energy that will be used by the body. To say 3500 calories = 1 pound is an extremely simplistic way of looking at it. But, it's just a way to help people control their food intake and remain at a certain weight. It says that the measurement of potential energy in a certain food will end up being converted to a measurement of body fat or muscle or whatever. A huge simplification, because the steps that go on between that bite of turkey and that roll of excess fat around one's mid section are so fricken complex that it boggles every scientist's mind, believe me.
Ok,let's substitute "food" for calories. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
I think you were simply trying to establish some sort of parameters for this experiment.
Yes, that is exactly what my intent was. Also, I did not mean to imply that 10 lbs would be insingnificant. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe 2 or 3. I was merely asking what conclusions would we draw from each of those potential results.
Yes. I understand. But 0 still falls between -3 and +3. Which still makes Red's 0 lb gain/loss insignificant, right? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Ok,let's substitute "food" for calories.
OK. Now that makes more sense.
It is so hard to determine just what happens to food though, isn't it? I mean, does it go right through us, or do certain molecules get absorbed and certain one's don't? This is why the calorie theory has been criticized as being WAY too simple of a measurement of energy or weight gain (not to mention fat gain versus muscle gain). _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 6067 Born: 10 March 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
I think you were simply trying to establish some sort of parameters for this experiment.
Yes, that is exactly what my intent was. Also, I did not mean to imply that 10 lbs would be insingnificant. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe 2 or 3. I was merely asking what conclusions would we draw from each of those potential results.
Yes. I understand. But 0 still falls between -3 and +3. Which still makes Red's 0 lb gain/loss insignificant, right?
It would be insignificant as far as change, (or no change), but when looked at in the context or many thousands of excess calories, no, it is not insignificant. I find it very significant. _________________ Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
jeff wrote:
Dean wrote:
I think you were simply trying to establish some sort of parameters for this experiment.
Yes, that is exactly what my intent was. Also, I did not mean to imply that 10 lbs would be insingnificant. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe 2 or 3. I was merely asking what conclusions would we draw from each of those potential results.
Yes. I understand. But 0 still falls between -3 and +3. Which still makes Red's 0 lb gain/loss insignificant, right?
It would be insignificant as far as change, (or no change), but when looked at in the context or many thousands of excess calories, no, it is not insignificant. I find it very significant.
But, we ARE talking about it in the context of excess calories. And, Red has only been doing 1000 extra calories per day. We were talking about doing like 2000 extra calories. So, I'm totally confused. If you were saying that if we gain or lose 2 or 3 lbs after eating 2000 extra calories per day over 30 days that that would NOT be significant, then how can you say that Red's situation, where she is eating 1000 extra calories per day over 13 days IS significant?
jeff, what does this mean?
jeff wrote:
Perhaps a very small gain(or loss) should be viewed as now change?
I took it to mean you thought this was insignificant. I took no(w) change = insignificant. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Canada Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 413 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject:
I think Jeff is saying that a 2 or 3 lb gain wouldn't be significant in the context of fat gain. That a 2 or 3 lb gain would not prove that any fat was stored, as a person's body can easily hold on to 2 or 3 lbs in water/salt, etc. in a given day. Not that anything other than a gain or loss of 10 lbs is insignificant. Personally, I think any change or lack of change is meaningful. Even if you were expecting to gain 20 lbs and only gained 5, that would still be hugely significant. Anything other than the expected gain is meaningful. And I have definitely experienced something other than the expected gain.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
-this little lab rat ain't that brave yet!!
