Location: Santa Fe, NM Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 246 Born: 10 December 1963 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: Vitamins and minerals in meat and fat - are they enough?
The question of whether meat and fat provide sufficient vitamins and minerals for my body is suddenly a very important question. A year and a half ago, when I went for my standard eye exam, the ophthalmologist noted that I had the start of cataracts in both eyes. My mom had cataracts. I'm only 44. My night vision has never been that great but in the last few months I've started to see halos around headlights and streetlights at night. This change coincided with my dropping plant matter from my diet. I'm not saying that the diet change accelerated the cataract symptoms but the change in night vision has caught my attention.
I've started researching cataract reversal and ocular health. One of the things I've read and believe is that the eyes need antioxidants, and vitamin C is a powerful anti-oxidant. It's interesting to read discussions about how carnivores don't get scurvy. Does someone have an explanation of it? I know that organ meats have vitamin C but my impression is that flesh meat doesn't, and a quick scan of the USDA nutrition database confirmed that beef has no vitamin C. So, are long-term carnivores all eating organ meat?
There's been a recent discussion about Vitamin C. Kristelle started eating some bell pepper for the vitamin C. I consume lemon juice. But, I'm concerned that my body may need more vitamin C that I'm going to get from small doses of plant matter and I have no interest in fibrous plant foods - I went carnivore because of lots of problem with fiber.
So, I've started supplementing with vitamin C tablets. I'm taking several 1000 milligram (1 gram) tablets per day. I'll also be looking into herbal eyewashes and other things to improve blood and antioxidant flow to my eyes. People have reversed cataracts with natural treatments so I'm optimistic that I can too, while maintaining a predominantly carnivore way of eating.
In my study of diets and healing I've run into orthomolecular medicine - i.e. megadoses of vitamins ala Linus Pauling. I'm drawn to this approach and will pursue it unless someone can convince me that flesh+fat is enough.
I think that the question of vitamin/mineral sufficiency in a carnivore diet is an important one for all of us. I've read too many horror stories of natural health gurus developing degenerative diseases and dying from taking their own advice too religiously and ignoring messages from their bodies.
While some would say that cavemen had no need for anything other than animal foods, they probably ate the entire animal, they didn't have mercury fillings, they didn't have environmental or chemical poisons, they didn't have decades of harm to their bodies to undo, they didn't inherit health conditions from their mothers in utero, and they didn't live the stressful lives many of us do.
I'm interested to know -- is there a good scholarly article about nutrients in meat? Yes, I can study the USDA nutrition database but I'd be interested in a document authored by someone who had scientifically studied the carnivore diet. And, I would like to see something other than the Inuit. That example has been overused to death; I'm not sure how relevant it is in this time, when so many of us are working to overcome our past "stuff."
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 4284 Born: 3 January 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject:
Sol,
Excellent post.
Yah, I often wonder about the same things you are saying here. I know that some resort to eating lots of organ meats, and eating lots of raw meat and eggs, etc. I stopped supplements, cuz I questioned just what possible overload of artificial chemicals and overdoses of certain nutrients I might be getting. I posted in Kristelle's journal (one of them ) a question about C. Jessica said peppers are really high. I use cayenne pepper sauce on lots of meat. I try to eat raw eggs and raw meat to get extra nutrients from them. But, like you, I'm concerned about long term deficiencies. I don't trust the modern nutritionists to tell me what I need to do, however. Their advice has led many to develop serious health problems. We are all gonna have to figure this out in other ways.
The only thing I would caution anyone on is believing too much in supplements, or nutrient absorption from plant matter. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but, blindly trusting modern medicine in using supplements or getting your RDA of this or that through a "balanced" diet that includes lots of fruits and vegetables, is blind following of modern nutrition info. I think most of us are here to escape that. But, I agree that we cannot fall into the trap of thinking in dogmatic ways. And, if there is a way to "cover our bases", that seems like very sound thinking to me.
So, I think you make a lot of great points, and it is very worthy of discussion and investigation. I'm like you and don't want the fiber in my diet. My GI tract is damaged enough, thank you. Anyway, thanks so much for posting this. It is an important issue. I wish I had some answers for you and for myself, but, I'm sorta questioning this too right now.
So, does anyone else have any answers to this? I'd sure love to know.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 4284 Born: 3 January 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject:
Nicola,
Thanks for those links. Yes, I think that by going as carnivorous as possible, one will avoid many health problems just by doing that. The need for antioxidants or other protective things will be greatly reduced when consuming animal foods, especially raw. There are "curative" substances in this type of food. The production of free radicals is "reduced" when running our body on FFAs versus dietary glucose. This has already been shown in many studies.
I use quotation marks around those words, cuz, I know that it is not that the animal food is doing anything special, it is actually the avoidance of non-animal foods that is the real secret to good health. If there are some medicinal uses of non-animal foods, then perhaps those things can help. However, there are so many different opinions out there about what substances are good and just how good (or bad) they are. I guess, for myself, I trust animal foods over non-animal foods. That is a blanket statement, I know. But, generally speaking, I believe it. That doesn't mean I'm not open to whatever ideas, though.
Anyway, thanks Nicola. I love your perspective on so many things we discuss on this board. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Santa Fe, NM Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 246 Born: 10 December 1963 Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:08 am Post subject:
Nicola -- Thanks for the links. I appreciate the research role you provide.
Do you know of a less expensive way to ionize water?
So, I went out this evening, drove back in the dark, and the halos were MUCH smaller than they had been the last couple of nights I was out recently. I attribute this to the fact that between yesterday and today I took something like 8 grams of Vitamin C and eyes require a tremendous amount of Vitamin C. It's also interesting that I had a craving for lemons during the contest when I wasn't drinking kombucha. And, it's interesting that I ran out of lemons a few days ago, just before the two "halo" nights. Also, the last carb food I ate before giving them all up was grapefruit, which has a decent amount of Vitamin C.
So, I think that I, just like Kristelle, am getting a marginal amount of Vitamin C in my animal-only diet and I'll investigate different ways to up the amount.
Here are some Vitamin C amounts from the USDA Nutrition Database:
1 small sweet red pepper - 94.5 mg
1 cup chopped kale - 80.4 mg
1 cup Grapefruit pieces - 71.8 mg
Juice of 1 lemon - 21.6 mg
318 grams of kombucha - 19 mg
100 grams raw beef liver - 1.3 mg
I've got some more experimenting to do but I've convinced myself that my animal-only diet isn't working for my body. For now I'll supplement. Later on I'll consider some food sources of Vitamin C.
Note that the body doesn't store Vitamin C; you need regular daily amounts of it.
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 555 Born: 19 November 1973 Gender: Female
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:52 am Post subject:
Quote:
BOSTON — Women who took vitamin C for more than 10 years had a markedly reduced risk of developing cataracts, reveals a study by the Jean Mayer USDA Nutrition Research Center on Aging. The acting director of the epidemiology program, Paul F. Jacques, Sc.D., admits in the February issue of New Choices: Living Even Better After 50, that while the study did not determine how much of the vitamin is required to achieve the reduction in risk, another recent study suggests that 200 milligrams per day is sufficient.
Vitamin C and vitamin E may also inhibit age-related macular degeneration, according to Dr. Jacques. Since cardiovascular disease may be linked to the breakdown of the macula by interfering with its ability to receive oxygen and nutrients from the blood, the vitamins that lower the risk of heart disease, A and E, may indirectly protect against macular degeneration.
although I dont recommend taking vit e or a.. there are other ways to get them besides supplements. this reference is to backup the vitamin c theory for cataracts.
will post more later when im not running off to work _________________
Location: Canada Joined: 18 Jan 2008 Posts: 409 Born: 14 August 1976 Gender: Female
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:
Right now, what is clear for me is that I was deficient in iodine and Vitamin C. I don't think we need much of either. A little iodized sea salt and a couple of tomatoes with some lemon sprinkled on them is good enough.
Living in Canada and eating meat from animals that are mostly grain-fed, I also think supplementing with Vitamin D is necessary. _________________ "When you give up your dream, you die"
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 4284 Born: 3 January 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject:
Kristelle, how do you get your D? Pills or some other way? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 547 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:34 am Post subject:
FWIW, I take more supplements than I did. Some people don't seem to need them, I think I do as i've probably did a lot of damage and am not getting my nutrients from food. I feel much better eating carnivore than I did before without them. Vitamins, minerals, and fish oil.
Jessica _________________ Make yourself happy, don't rely on anyone else to do it. Be your own best friend.
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 Posts: 14 Born: 20 October 1964 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:16 am Post subject:
Great topic, and it is something that has definitely been on my mind, too. If I go zero carb, it won't be with bleu meat, or organ meats, so that is a loss in nutrients right there.
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 4284 Born: 3 January 1960 Gender: Male
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:32 am Post subject:
Daryl,
How 'bout joining the Rocky Raw Egg Challenge?!
http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about659.html _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
MAC Wrote:
The Inuit people lived much of the year on coastal ice (which is partially desalinated sea water), and much of their food consisted of soup made with meat in a broth from this brackish source of water. When they went inland to hunt, they traditionally added caribou blood (also a rich source of sodium) to their soup. With these empirically derived techniques, the Inuit culture had adapted the available resources to optimize their intakes of both sodium and potassium."
Since I've been reading Not by Bread Alone which I hope to share with everyone very soon, I've learned so much more about the Inuit. Many researchers make statements about them without knowing the whole story. Stefansson notes in this book that there are some Inuit who did not eat caribou at all. They ate seal for the entire year. People were saying that the Mackenzie eskimos, with whom Stefansson spent much time, had good calcium because they ate bones. Their skeletons were on display in museums and it was reasonable for them to believe this. However, he states as follows:
Quote:
but there are
Eskimos who live practically exclusively on seal their whole
lives, and yet there is no indication while they live that they
are less healthy than the caribou eaters, nor do their skeletons
show a lack of calcium. Thus calcium deficiency is as
absent from those meat-eaters who practically never eat
bones as from those who eat them nearly every day of their
lives
Even the caribou eaters did not eat caribou all the time. They might have them one year and the next year, they might eat only seal.
Quote:
it can be stated simply and flatly that the man who
chews a lot of bones in a caribou-hunting year will chew no
bones at all in a sealing year
This makes my argument that we don't just get nutrients in our bodies based on what we eat. This whole notion got started when they examined people with deficiency diseases. They found them deficient in particular nutrients so therefore they assigned cause as saying that the subjects did not consume the nutrients. The truth is they only proved that certain foods can reverse the deficiency but they did not discover what caused the deficiency to begin with.
We find the same with cholesterol. Dr. Ravnskof cites studies that show that high total cholesterol serves to protect us from infection. If a person provides a lipid profile at the same time they are fighting off an infection, their cholesterol might be raised. This is in no way indicative of heart disease.
Researchers know that when a person is fighting off a disease, the body may lower its own iron levels to protect the body by keeping the illness from spreading. Adding iron by a supplement at this point would be harmful because one would be fighting against their own body. Iron is known to oxidize or "rust" things inside the body if taken beyond what the body requires.
Despite these repeated observations, we condinue to take multi-vitamins wily-nilly without regard to the nutrient balance in our bodies. We do so based on the fear that something may be missing from our "balanced diet." The whole "balanced diet" notion is a house of cards.
There is no doubt that low-fat dieters who only eat 2,000 calories or less and provide little fat for their bodies are deficient in nutrients. However, it's not because the food doesn't have the nutrients. It's because their bodies use those nutrients to process the unhealthy foods. The FDA has enriched every bit of food you can buy from candy bars to orange juice yet they still insist that people don't get enough vitamin this or that without taking into account the reason for the deficiencies. The nutrients are there but they are not being absorbed.
Taubes cited six studies in GCBC and in each of them deficiency diseases were brought on by carbohydrate-rich diets. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in animal studies as well. Deficiency diseases have never been shown on all-meat diets.
When addressing salt one should consider what causes them to be deficient in sodium or potassium. The solution may not be adding more sodium or potassium but removing those carbohydrates or perhaps even water that requires sodium or potassium to process it. If we provide too much sodium via the diet, the body may shut off its absorption of salt to compensate.
I don't konw the answer but I do know that for the last three weeks, I've been able to stretch in my bed without fear of cramping muscles and I've avoided salt.
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) a question about C. Jessica said peppers are really high. I use cayenne pepper sauce on lots of meat. I try to eat raw eggs and raw meat to get extra nutrients from them. But, like you, I'm concerned about long term deficiencies. I don't trust the modern nutritionists to tell me what I need to do, however. Their advice has led many to develop serious health problems. We are all gonna have to figure this out in other ways.
