The Magic Bus Trip

Dean · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: Dean's ZCarnivore MAM Experiment

OK. As much animal fat as I've been eating lately, and, as much body fat as I've been losing in such a short time, I think it's time for me to do the MAM experiment I never did a year ago. The fact I am only eating fatty meat with dry seasoning, only drinking water, not eating any dairy or eggs or organs, and the fact I have just a few kilos of body fat to lose, makes me a pretty good subject for this. Yup

AC, eat your heart out (again). LOL

I think I'm gonna shoot for 5000 calories a day Shock

, keeping carbs as close to zero as possible, and fat as high as I can stand, and, the thing is, rather than simply maintain my weight, I'm gonna see if I LOSE body fat! I will have to do some pemmican during this time, to get my animal fat up with tons of tallow. I also have a huge, very fatty brisket in the freezer, and lots of pork belly. Cool

I'm really looking forward to this experiment. I think it will trash the calorie theory all to hell, and possibly force AC out of hiding... to write (yet another) bashing book! Roll Eyes

Hey, this is the Metabolic Ward, isn't it? Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Linda · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:45 am Post subject:

I'm looking forward to watching your experiment, Dean. Good luck! Happy

Valcan · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:26 am Post subject:

Hi Dean,

I am looking forward to following your experiment. I plan to go zero carb/high fat for January but I am not counting calories. I love eating fat so it shouldn't be a problem to keep my fat levels high. Beef fat roasted in the Nuwave for dinner anyone?

Val

jeff · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject:

Good luck, buddy! With that much fat and that many calories, it will be imperitive to keep your carbs at zero.
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Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die

Kim · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject:

GO DEAN!!

Kim

Dean · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject:

I need some suggestions for this experiment. One thing I really need to do is concentrate on super high animal fat intake. I am only eating lightly cooked animal flesh and fat with dry seasoning, so, there is no dairy to increase the fat consumption. I will probably need to drink straight beef brisket and pork belly drippings in order to push those calories up. LOL

More than likely, I'm going to be closer to 4000 calories than to 5000, but, that is still an excess number of calories for me to be able to lose weight (according to the calorie theory, or even the futile cycle theory). I'd better not stall, or this will be a very short experiment. Wink

I'm not going to start this experiment until after the holidaze are over, which for me is after all the early January Birthdays are over. I've got a lot of friends that were born this time of year. Three of us will be at a big party this Saturday, January 3rd, which happens to be my Birthday. Then, there is my gf's Birthday after that. While I'm almost off the java, I will partake in some wine on certain nights coming up, so, I want to wait till after that.

In the meantime, any suggestions on how best to do this experiment are greatly appreciated. So, post away, please!

Sunny

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Valcan · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 am Post subject:

Hi,

Do you have a butcher that will give you chicken skin and beef fat? Both cook nicely in NuWave. You can eat the browned fat or skin and then drink the fat the falls off into the bottom pan.

100 g of chicken skins - 472 calories
1 cup chicken fat - 1846 calories (I love drinking chicken fat Grin

)
1 ounce beef fat - 253 calories
1 cup tallow - 1849 calories

Val

Dean · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:58 am Post subject:

Yah, if I just drink a cup of chicken fat for breakfast, and a cup of tallow for dinner, that should do it, huh? Wink

Val, it sounds like you should be doin' this MAM Experiment with me. Yup

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Valcan · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:40 am Post subject:

I am tempted to join in but I think if I can make it past a week on zero carb (my current record) that will be an accomplishment for me. I really just want to concentrate on zero carb and not have to worry about adding in extra calories and keeping track. Once I settle in to zc, I may consider doing a MAM experiment. I will be cheering you on from the sidelines though!

Val

Nicola · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:20 am Post subject:

Don't you think that you will make yourself sick? What about your gut; I notice things! Try going for a run on that - or am I just not normal?

Nicola

jeff · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject:

I think you're right in that your calories will be closer to 4000. I can tell you from experience it is tough to each that much meat and fat. Since you are only going to eating meat, fat and water.....I don't know that there is much advice to be offered. I suppose just eat as much fat as you can stand.

Why are you worried about a stall? You don't have much to lose. What's wrong with staying the same weight for a few weeks in the name of science? Wink

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Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die

Dean · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject:

Thanks for your concern, Nicola. I've had the same concerns, so you are not abnormal in your thinking.

jeff, I am doing this to see if I can continue losing while upping the fat way beyond my caloric need. If I stall, then, that is only going to prove that one cannot lose weight unless they lower calories. I have already seen that I can maintain my weight when doing ZC, despite excess calories. During the Carnivore Contests last year, I proved that. You also proved it during your MAM Experiment.

I now want to see if I can lose while doing ZC. The difference this time will be the elimination of all modern foods, which include dairy and eggs. I want to eat the natural, paleo diet of our ancestors, which was pure muscle meat and fat. They may have eaten organs at times, but, it's obvious they ate lots of muscle and fat, raw for a very long time, then, they started cooking this stuff. If I eat like that, it will be very interesting to see what happens to this fat roll around my belly.

You're correct that I don't have much to lose, but, I do wanna lose it. I want to get to the point where it is impossible to pinch any fat on my abs. That has always been my goal, and still is. Right now that roll is the size of a bicycle tire. On Thanksgiving, it was the size of two. If eating around 4000 calories of animal fat will allow this roll to continue to shrink, that will be something, now won't it? Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Valcan · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject:

Hi Dean,

There is another possible outcome of your experiment. You may find that by upping your fat intake, you lose fat from your body even faster. I am interested in the results of this experiment. I find that I can only eat so much fat then I start to feel queasy. You may find that your body will regulate the amount of fat you can consume and not the numbers in Fitday. I am not sure if this queasiness is something that people get past or not.

Val

Karen · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject:

hi dean!

Good luck on your experiment! i will be interested to see the results.

karen Happy

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Pooti · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 134 Gender: Female

Good luck Dean! Haha I just figured out who AC was!!!! Clap

So what does MAM mean? Does this mean you will be "Manimal" when you are done!?!
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Dean · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:11 am Post subject:

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about813.html Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Pooti · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 134 Gender: Female

Thanks! LOL. So does that mean you will be a "maminal" instead?! ;) I don't think you are gonna gain. Are you keeping your carbs at zero?
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Dean · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:40 am Post subject:

I plan to.
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Lynne · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject:

Dean, doesn't all that fat upset your tummy?
I find I get so sick if I eat too much fat.. I get the queezies about 4-6 hours after eating.

I'll be watching you too.
I'm completely ZC and would like to lose..
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"Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."

Nicola · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject:

and after the tummy has let it into the gut...not nice. I have the gutflue and trying to get on with my body with things going threw or trying to eat - no fun! Try moving on that kind of diet; this may not be much fun on top!

Nicola

Heather L · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject:

Hey Dean. It will be interesting to watch how your MAM experiment goes.

Congrats on giving up the java. Cool

I respect the discipline of that.

Dean · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Heather. Heart

It's actually been easy, since I cut down so gradually. I don't even think about coffee anymore, which is rather weird, considering I had my last "cup" (thimble full) just 4 days ago.
Yah, just the thought of all that animal fat makes me wanna puke! Puke

That's why I've been soliciting ideas on how to go about this.

Whaddaya all think? Do people lose on ZCarnivore cuz the cals are so low? Hell, I'm only eating once a day, and don't even think about food until into the evening.

Perhaps I will have to resort to drinking down melted butter... or is that gonna throw off this "tightly-controlled" experiment? Roll Eyes

Hmmmm.... maybe I should just lick lots of hot melted butter off some Boot Babes at the back of the Bus. Devil

Decisions, decisions. Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Pooti · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 134 Gender: Female

Hey Dean - here's what I've been doing. I melt some fat in my pan and cook my meat then pour the fat (spoon it) over my meat and once I cut it I use the meat as a mop to soak up all the fat. If it's too lean, I will add a couple of tablespoons of butter.

The other thing I did the other day was make beef ribs and I put about 2-3cups of water in the bottom of the pan and a couple of short ribs in the bottom. Then put the racks of ribs on a rack. All the fat dripped off and flavored the water. I covered it with aluminum foil and let em cook at 300*-325* for about 1-1/2 hours. Then I uncovered em, turned the heat up and let em brown. I drank the broth which is heavy heavy in fat while I ate the ribs. I had some leftover and there was about 3/4" of fat congealed on the top. I took some of it off to use as fat. But kept the reast to flavor the broth. It's soooooo good!

I also will throw marrow bones in with chuck roast and some water and a bit of salt and will brown the chuck in fat first. Then cook it low and slow for about 3-4hours. It ends up being really fat. Then I blend up the marrow and pour it back into the broth. Makes it even fattier feeling.

Just my 2cents! You're doing great!
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Heather L · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject:

Dean · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject:

Yes, you have a good point there, Heather. This could very easily lead to lots of ESC. Devil

I'd still like to use this method, though. Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Lynne · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject:

dean, what does MAM stand for?
miss coffee yet?
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"Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."

SnowDog2003 · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:30 pm Post subject:

Dean, I just noticed this thread. How is your 4000 calorie self-experiment going? Did you start it?

Oh, and who is AC?

Dean · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:47 am Post subject:

If you listen really carefully, you can sometimes hear his screams coming up from the catacombs below the Ward. Bonkers

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about813.html Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

SnowDog2003 · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:30 am Post subject:

I guess I'm dense. That thread you're referencing ended over a year ago. It doesn't look like anything ever got started.

Valcan · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject:

Hi,

There is a link in the thread to who AC is. I think that is why Dean posted it.

Val

Dean · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject:

AC has gone missing for sometime. He's quite the mystery around here. Wink

I mainly posted that link cuz it spelled out what MAM is. Metabolic Advantage Movement. That is the Movement that ran AC into hiding. That's his version of it, anyway. Roll Eyes

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Dean · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject:

Valcan · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject:

Hey Dean,

How about starting at a reasonable amount of fat and then upping it a bit every day until you are around 3000 calories (or whatever your upper fat limit *ufl* is) and then see if you can maintain that for awhile.

Val

Dean · Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the suggestions, Val.

I've probably already been eating close to that many calories, but, who knows.

Right now, I have chicken hot wings with all the fat drippings, turkey with all the fat drippings, brisket with all the fat drippings, and a pork belly slab I'm getting ready to roast. I've been drowning all this meat I eat in it's own fat, and I've upped my eating to three times a day.

I'm gonna start plugging things into FitDay to see what the numbers are.

I'm glad I dropped the wine and coffee. I think both of those have an effect on getting fully keto-adapted, which is my goal right now, before I begin this experiment in earnest. I'm also certain that, for whatever reason, dairy stalls me big time. I have assumed it was the extra fat I was eating, so, that is why I want to try it this way, to see if the same thing happens with any animal fat.

BTW, how long do y'all think it will take for me to get keto-adapted? 2-4 weeks or sooner?
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Dean · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:57 am Post subject:

OK. Tonight I had some beef brisket, and I took the nice white fat I kept from the drippings, and I put a lot of this fat over the top of some fatty brisket meat and mic'd it, and it was swimming in fat. Tasted heavenly. Heart

I think I need to start coming up with some staples for this Experiment.

Here are some. Please help me find some others.

* Brisket
* Pork Belly
* Hamburger?
* Beef Ribs
* Pork Steaks

If I just pour lots of the fat over these when I eat 'em, I should be able to get my cals up there. What are some others that are especially fatty? How 'bout pork sausage?

Appreciate the help.

Also, when should I start this sucker? Cool

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

jeff · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject:

I say start immediately!

The pork sausage would certainly be fatty, but it would also have alot of salt, which would make you hold water. So we don't really want that. Chicken thighs are pretty fatty. Prime rib and ribeye are also favorites of mine.
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Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die

Pooti · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 134 Gender: Female

oxtails
lamb shanks
ham hocks - fresh
beef short ribs
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Dean · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

So, jeff, do you think I should not do any salt during this deal? How 'bout seasonings? What board am I on? Shock

No, really, I'm wondering just how far I should take this.

I went 14 days back in April 2007 on just naked meat, and that was SO hard to have ANY appetite. I would have to start drinking tallow to get my fat up with that WOE. I would probably get pretty sick, too. Sad

Or... should I include butter? Then it wouldn't be hard getting my fat up. I mean, I could get it up and it would be hard. Devil

We'll you know what I mean. Wink

I'm having flashbacks of our last Kool-Aid party at the back of the Bus. Wow

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

jeff · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject:

I'd leave butter out, because dairy is suspect. Seasoning other than salt I think will be fine. A little salt may be ok. I would think that if you've been using salt all along, then as long as you maintain the same amount of use, it would not be a problem.
_________________
Eat, Drink and Be Merry, For Tomorrow We'll Die

Dean · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject:

Heather L · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject:

jeff · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject:

Dean · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject:

Certain hormones would be pretty ramped up, I suppose. Yup

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Lynne · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:56 am Post subject:

when i stopped seasonings, i lost my appetite. nothing tasted good.
i added back my seasonings.

dean, if you do add seasonings try this:
chili powder, cumin powder, garlic powder on top of beef ribs, short ribs.. on top of the fat on the brisket.. that combo is awesome and makes the meat really brown...

sausage has fillers.. steer clear!
unless you make your own chorizo..
_________________
"Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."

Pooti · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 134 Gender: Female

What about ghee? That has all the milk solids removed so that you have pure butter fat. Is that still a bad thing if all the casein is gone?
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Dean · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:29 am Post subject:

Lynne,

That sounds close to the combo of spices I was using when cooking steaks in lots of tallow. That was awesome. I think I used red pepper, paprika, and red curry, instead of chili powder. I'll try it with chili powder next time. Thanks for the reminder. That's another way to get my fat way up.

I get fresh made sausage at my grocery store that is just ground pork with a combo of spices mixed in. It's really good stuff. I can get chorizo or Italian or some other stuff I don't care for. I love to use the Italian sausage in omelets with provolone cheese, and even some shrooms. Heart

BTW, have you checked out my pizza recipe?

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about687.html

I doubt I'll ever make one again, but, boy were they good. Talk about calories. If I'd been counting, I would have outdone jeff. Like him, I never gained, but never lost.
_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Dean · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:32 am Post subject:

Pooti, I'm not sure if they ever use ghee at those Kool-Aid parties or not. Next time, If I'm not too stoned, I'll ask one of the Boot Babes. Wink

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!

Lynne · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:55 am Post subject:

wow, those pizza photo's had me almost salivating.
it's nearly 6am, and not time for breakfast!!!!

with ZC, i'm not cooking up all my goodies any longer..
but you know, someday, when my body has settled at the desired weight, it's sposed to be..
i will add in a few of my favorite things and see if they cause any chaos.
but for now, i'm ok with just fat, protein and water..

i know that one of these days i'll be able to eat a whole 3 bone prime rib, all by myself... just like my ancestors did!
ahahahahahahaha!
_________________
"Failure is an opportunity to start again more intelligently."

Pooti · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 134 Gender: Female

Dean · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:27 am Post subject:

OK. Yesterday and today I used FitDay, just to see what was what. I ate lots of animal fat from brisket, chicken wings, and turkey. Had three large meals of meat with as much fat as I could stand.

Granted, I ate more than I have been eating, but, I was shocked to find that I exceeded 5000 calories both days! Shock

So, I would guesstimate that I have been consuming well over 3000 calories for the past couple months, and I have lost body fat, to the tune of over 6 kilos! Cool

Keep in mind, my calorie needs are about 2500 a day.

I have been feeling a bit queasy eating all this fat. I've been drowning things in animal fat. I wonder if butter would have the same effect.

Anyway, I'm gonna start this experiment tomorrow, and post the cals each day and the body fat loss (or gain) each Wednesday. At this point, I won't use butter, but, I may need to bring that into this experiment in the future.

I hope I can survive all this fat going through my system. It's really quite nasty to do this.

All in the name of science, huh? Roll Eyes

_________________
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix

Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!