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Patricia
Joined: 10 Jan 2009
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Born: 28 September 1966
Gender: Female
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 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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As I've said previously (and you've seen this, Pooti), men are going to lose on this much easier than women. We also have a lot more hormones running around and since insulin is related to hormones it's going to hang on for dear life. I want to see someone like me or you with a lot of weight to lose work this. I'm committing myself to this because I know from past experience that I feel much better when I'm meat/fat/occasional eggs and I have lost weight. If eating this way makes you feel like crap, don't do it.
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Born: 3 January 2010
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | Let's take a look at Pooti's BG numbers again.
Here are my blood sugar results:
101 Pre-prandial
95 Hour 1
103 Hour 2
106 Hour 3
109 Hour 4
105 Hour 5
107 Hour 6
1 hour after eating she has a 6 point drop. This is the phase one insulin response, right? Ok, after another hour there is an 8 point rise. Many people seem to want to say that was caused by protein being converted to glucose. But who is to say that some, if not all, of that rise isn't from glycogen being released in order to bring her BG back up to normal? |
Why does it have to be glycogen being released? When insulin is first released to help aid nutrient distribution (any macro nutrients) after a meal, then the insulin inhibits hepatic gluconeogenesis (gonna keep pounding out this concept). When insulin levels fall, gluconeogenesis will go back to normal, and, therefore, the blood glucose levels will rise.
It really makes no difference as to the substrates being used for GNG. The fact that it MUST occur, and that insulin controls the rate at which it occurs, makes this explanation far more plausible. Muscle glycogen stores are, once again, there to fine tune (Bear says "maintain" - same thing) the blood glucose levels at the location of the muscles. It is NOT there to supply glucose. Muscles don't make glucose, they just store it in glycogen! They suck it up and spit it out. Period.
If an inhibition to gluconeogenesis (the source of glucose for ZC/VLC eaters) is caused by the increase of insulin after a meal, then, once that inhibition is removed (when insulin levels return to normal), then GNG will return to normal. I know that GNG is something that MUST occur, and it occurs on a REGULAR and CONSTANT basis, so as to supply needed glucose to the blood. Muscle glycogen just regulates (fine tunes) the blood that is in the vicinity of a particular part of the muscle tissue, which is all over the body.
The liver is the main source of glucose for us VLC/ZCers. Forget about what Bear said for a minute and just address what I'm saying here. Cuz, this is how it happens. I think you might be reading too much into what Bear said, and possibly taking it out of context.
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Born: 10 March 1960
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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I never said it had to be glycogen being released. I only asked "How do we know it's not?"
I guess we need to define "fine tuning" then. I would consider going from 95 to 103 fine tuning. Both values are within a few points of her fasting BG levels. This represents a miniscule amount of glucose.....less than half a gram.
Dean, are you saying then that you think protein does convert to glucose?
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Born: 3 January 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Of course it does. So does fat. They get converted all the time. It's not an option. GNG MUST occur, and occur on a constant basis. The question isn't whether various substrates get converted to glucose via GNG, but, simply, how much do they. As Bear correctly stated, when one is fat/keto adapted, fat will be used instead of protein and the liver will not have to make as much glucose, so the amount will be less, because, basically, only blood cells need glucose, while the other cells can use ketones and FFAs, once the adaptation is made. Just how long that adaptation takes is up in the air. Perhaps if you have a compromised metabolism, you should be very patient with the enzyme switch out that must occur. Of course, most people are not very patient, and they decide to eat carbs, so, there goes that idea.
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When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix
Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus! |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Born: 10 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, this topic has exhausted me. 
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Time to break out the black box, huh? 
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When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
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Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus! |
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Born: 10 March 1960
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, time for the infamous black box. 
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Pooti
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 134
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:16 am Post subject: |
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So how do I get keto fat adapted so that my liver doesn't make so much protein? When I go too deep into ketosis I start feeling that adrenalin rush stuff.
In that experiment with the blood sugar numbers it's important to note that the serving size of that protein isn't sustainable to me for a meal. I was unsatisfied. If I remember it was about 4oz of lean and 2oz of fat or something like that.
Do you think it would be interesting to see what happens to me on a big 1lb ribeye with fat? I could run the numbers again. Of course now that I'm eating veggie carbs, I'm guessing I'm not fat adapted? Although, the other confusing thing is that Dr. Atkins says by eating less than 20g of carbs you do become a fat burner and keto-adapted. Do you think this is true or not?
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Probably depends on the person.
I'm curious what would happen to your BG levels if you would just eat a bunch of fat. Have you ever tried that?
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Pooti
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 134
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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No I haven't tried eating fat only then testing but oddly, I thought about that this weekend while sitting in a hotel room in Metarie Louisiana!
How much fat do you think I would need to eat to get a good test? I'm thinking saute'd beef tallow till it's brownish?
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SnowDog2003
Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Posts: 39
Born: 7 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Pooti, low carbers are usually in ketosys. Do you have any ketone strips, and have you measured your ketones?
That should tell you if you're in ketosys, and hence, burning fat. |
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Pooti
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 134
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:03 am Post subject: |
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No Craig, I haven't used them since about 2004. I could get some of course. I have "heard" that keto stix measure dietary fat as much as they measure ketone bodies in the urine. Do you have any information on this? I can tell you that when eating induction levels it usually shows up one of the first two squares on the stick (back then). But when it would go toward the end 3 colors, that's when I start feeling very unwell and having adrenalin storms. So maybe they do measure true ketosis?
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Heather
Location: near Edmonton
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 1762
Born: 12 October 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:02 am Post subject: |
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 Heather |
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SnowDog2003
Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Posts: 39
Born: 7 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Pooti wrote: | | No Craig, I haven't used them since about 2004. I could get some of course. I have "heard" that keto stix measure dietary fat as much as they measure ketone bodies in the urine. Do you have any information on this? I can tell you that when eating induction levels it usually shows up one of the first two squares on the stick (back then). But when it would go toward the end 3 colors, that's when I start feeling very unwell and having adrenalin storms. So maybe they do measure true ketosis? |
From what I understand, they simply measure ketones that are spilling into the urine. The amount of ketones showing up do not mean anything other than that ketones are being produced in large amounts, and spilt into the urine. I also understand that some people can be in ketosys and not spill any ketones.
I'm always at the second or third square, and have been there for 5 months. |
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Dean
Location: Flyover Zone
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Born: 3 January 2010
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Craig,
I think the ones who show no ketones have perhaps become keto-adapted and are using the ketones. I've never used those stix, but, I suppose I'd make an excellent test subject since I've been so close to ZC for a long time now.
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When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
- Jimi Hendrix
Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus! |
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Pooti
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 134
Gender: Female
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Dean...I'm "feeling something" maybe a voice saying....it's saying....wait a second...it's saying, "Dean....DEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNN...you need to try the ketostix for all of earth's well being!!!!! DEEEEEEANNNNNN!"
Oh wow! What was that? I think I was channelling or something! :D ;) 
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jeff
Location: Milton, Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 6067
Born: 10 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | Craig,
I think the ones who show no ketones have perhaps become keto-adapted and are using the ketones. I've never used those stix, but, I suppose I'd make an excellent test subject since I've been so close to ZC for a long time now. |
Yes, I've tried the stix several times awhile back and they showed negative. So my body is using whatever ketones I'm producing.
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SnowDog2003
Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Posts: 39
Born: 7 March 1960
Gender: Male
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Dean, the ketostix are cheap. If you find the time, tell us what you see.
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