Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject:
Dean wrote:
Karen,
Some questions for ya.
How much are you needing to lose?
Have you ever had success on losing, and if so, how did you do it? What did you eat?
What was your longest spell of losing/maintaining and being relatively craving free?
Why are you wanting to do such strict ZCarnivore eating?
I want to lose about another 65 lbs. It's more about the clothing size for me, so I'm not exactly sure that's the magic number. I'd say at least another 50, and I'll have to see where I'm at then. I'm 5'1 with a relatively small frame.
Twice before in my life I've lost large amounts of weight (85+lbs). I did it by eating low fat low cal, starving myself, fad diets, and diet pills. The weight falls off when I do this, but it is unhealthy, miserable, and temporary. What did I eat - next to nothing. I could make a sleeve of low soduim saltine crackers last an entire day. I once went about a month on nothing but slim fast. And so on. I've tried the establishment's recommended chicken breast/brown rice/veggie lifestyle, too.
I'm not sure if you're asking about the longest spell since I've been LC or in my life, so I'll answer both. There were two instances in my adult life where I've been able to maintain the same weight for a few years. First was after I lost the baby weight from my first kid. I got down to 105 and stayed around there for about 2 years. Then I yo-yo'd up and down with about 30 lbs for about 3 years. The second was after I lost the baby weight from my second kid. For about 4 years I stayed inbetween 140-150, and would occassionally reach the 130s, but couldn't maintain that. During both of these times, I wasn't craving free, I was eating crap, and I used OTC stimulants to curb my appetite and get by on 5 hours of sleep a night. Two years ago after my last divorce, I quit the pills and finally allowed myself to sleep and eat. I gained 10 lbs in the first 6 months. I was also depressed on and off during this time, and gained about 65 lbs more in the year after that.
Last fall I decided to do a "life overhaul." I was sick and tired of being sick and tired and fat and miserable. I turned to low carb to lose weight, but soon after saw the health benefits. For the first time in 15 years, I felt good. I didn't feel hungry all the time. I started to do some of the work in my head to get myself into a better place mentally. After dropping about 25-30 lbs, I decided to start incorporating exercise (this past January) I went to the doctor, and my cholesterol and blood sugar had dropped into the normal range. Since LC, my longest spell of losing is two weeks. Inbetween losing, I maintain fairly easily. I have never been craving free during this process, but at times it's not so bad. I started with Atkins induction and kept to that for 6 weeks. Starting in January, I dropped my carbs to less than 10/day.
I believe in the science behind low carb. I like VLC better than zero carb. I maintain just fine on 10-20 carbs/day, and I feel great. I like to put a little lemon juice in my water once in a while, or have some coffee with cream. I enjoy the occassional salad. I went to ZC because I was having a hard time losing on VLC. I figured I would drop my carbs as low as I possibly could to lose, and then raise them up to 20 again to maintain when I reach my goal. I never got to the stage of Atkins where I could find my CCL, because I stopped losing at 20 carbs/day after 2 weeks.
_________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:06 pm Post subject:
I have a hard time believing that a few grams of carbs will make that much difference. I think it comes down to other hormonal factors, a wrecked metabolism that may need time to heal, calories, need for exercise, stress reduction, etc. The only reason I can see that a person would want to eat ZC is because it may trigger cravings to do carbs, because ZC is much more simple, it's cheaper, one loses interest in eating non-animal foods, etc.
My advice to you, Karen, is to continue your experiment and try various things out to break your stall. You will find what works for you by doing this. Just don't forget to deal with other issues besides the carb intake. Sometimes people think it is ONLY about carb consumption. That's really a false premise and can set a lot of people up for unnecessary failure as well as obsessions. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:01 am Post subject:
Thanks for your thoughts, Dean. I agree that there is more involved than just carb count.
I've put my body through a lot in the last 15 years. I'm sure there is plenty of healing that needs to happen. I do have a bit of stress in my life; I'm a single parent with a large amount of responsibility at work. Those two things don't always mesh well. But I'm working on different ways to deal with it.
You made a good point about obsession. That's one of the things I need to figure out. I've been obsessed with losing weight since I was a teenager, and that's going to take some time to get past. Unfortunately, the elimination diet didn't help that at all. Being so limited in my food choices just fanned the flame. In my head, it turned into a "diet" instead of a WOE/WOL, and I became obsessed with the results. It's a very fine line, for me, between being mindful about what I eat and being obsessed with what I eat.
I am not continuing on ZC. I already ate a large salad earlier tonight. And although I didn't make it on ZC through tomorrow morning, as I had planned, I don't feel like I quit. I sat down and thought about it, and I made a decision that it was long enough, and I wasn't in it for the right reasons anymore. When I started considering not eating today because I couldn't stand another piece of beef or pork, I recognized that I was going back to some of my unhealthy behaviors. For this reason, I am not posting my food for today. My weight was 180.3 this morning; I have lost .2 lbs in the past 6 days.
I will continue this thread with my results from CKD if anyone is interested. If not, maybe I'll just write about it a little in my journal. I've got it stuck in my head that it may work for me, and I need to find out. I think that the variation in food may be beneficial to me psychologically, at least for now. And not in a way like giving myself a reward with junk food, but more like knowing that I have lots of options, and making this feel real instead of a "diet."
I have decided to stick to fruits and vegetables for higher carb consumption days. I don't want to get back in the habit of eating all the crap and fast food, and I think that this still allows me to be a good example for my kids. I know that some people have said that eating fruit is just like eating a candy bar once it's in my body. But it doesn't have the same effect emotionally for me. It doesn't feel like failure.
So to sum up what I'm rambing about here, I need to find a WOE I can stick to and not obsess over. And one where I can continue to be healthy and lose weight, even if it's a slower pace than I would like. I'm sure that it will take plenty of trial and error. But I'm not giving up.
Thank you again, everyone, for your support and kind words.
Karen _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Pacific Northwest Joined: 22 Jan 2009 Posts: 1504 Born: 2 December 2009 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:43 am Post subject:
Karen G wrote:
So to sum up what I'm rambing about here, I need to find a WOE I can stick to and not obsess over. And one where I can continue to be healthy and lose weight, even if it's a slower pace than I would like. I'm sure that it will take plenty of trial and error. But I'm not giving up.
Y0u know your body and mind better than any of us do. And your summation is correct..y0u do need to find a WOE that y0u can live with and not obsess over. Slow weight loss usually stays off, and y0u will find your way...I know y0u will..So relax and enjoy life a little bit and know that I support y0u in whatever y0u do.
_________________ Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:11 am Post subject:
Karen,
That's good that you have figured this much out. Congratulations!
I think it would be very interesting for you to continue this experiment and report about the CKD thing. I'm absolutely sure there are many that will find it highly informative. You are certainly not the only one that is having this same stalling issue.
Thanks so much for doing this experiment.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Florida Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 17 Born: 27 April 1965 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:24 am Post subject:
Keep posting here, Karen.
You won't be the only one that a different WOE works better for than ZC does. Get that info out and there's a good chance you'll help someone else.
Right now I'm sticking to ZC because it's easier for me by the simple act of having less decisions to make about "what's for dinner?". I definately see myself adding limited amounts of carbs now & then later on (e.g. a salad with my steak). Tell us what works, what doesn't.
Quote:
I sat down and thought about it, and I made a decision that it was long enough, and I wasn't in it for the right reasons anymore
You have to do what works for YOU.
And we'll be here along the way if you need anything.
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject:
y0u, Dean, and Steve J, thank you so much for your support and kindness.
I'm going to try doing CKD for a while. I don't know how long, that depends on what happens. I've been trying to come up with some parameters, and this is what I have so far:
My objective is to see if CKD will allow me a steady weight loss, as opposed to the sporadic weight loss I've been experiencing on continued low carb plans.
* I'll do 1 day of high carb (at least 150g) followed by 6 days of low carb (0-20g). This may need to be adjusted along the way.
* I am limiting fruit and dairy, except butter, to the high carb day.
* Any and all fresh fruit and veggies are available on the high carb day, along with whatever protein and fat I feel like eating.
* I will not be eating bread, pasta, rice, cake, ice cream, etc.
* To start, I am not going to have a calorie goal; I'll just see where it ends up.
* I will not be listing everything I am eating here, but I will be tracking it in Daily Plate, so if anyone wants to see the detail I can retrieve it.
* I will list the daily calories and breakdown of fat, protein, and carbs each day.
* I will not post my weight each day, but I will track it in Daily Plate if anyone wants that detail as well. I want to limit my whining discussion of my weight, but if anyone has a question about it, please ask.
* I will post my weight at the end of each 7 day cycle.
* My exercise plan will stay the same as it was. 2-3 days per week of weight lifting and 1 day of yoga.
* I will limit caffeine, but not exclude it. One cup of coffee or caffeinated tea per day max, any other hot drinks will be herbal tea.
* AS is allowed throughout, but in moderation.
One really great thing that came out of the elimination experiment - I woke up this morning knowing that I could have a cup of coffee, but I didn't want any. It's amazing how my mind craves things that I put off limits. This is why I am allowing caffeine. I hope that I will continue to feel that it is not necessary. The AS is so that I can eat a serving of sf jello or mix some into coffee or lemon water to curb a craving. And because I like to chew sf gum when I am at the gym.
I am expecting cravings for sweets to increase in this experiment. Part of the experiment is to see how I will handle the cravings. I believe that a lot of my cravings are purely psychological, and are easier for me to control when my motivation is high. I say this because the first few days of lowering carbs are always the easiest for me; it's the following days that get more difficult.
Today is day one. My starting weight is 181.2lbs. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject:
Go, Karen!
Looking forward to your results. Please keep us posted.
_________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:44 am Post subject:
Adding ketostix to the equation out of curiosity. I know some people don't trust 'em, but for me, they seem to show results pretty consistent to how I am eating when I've used them in the past.
I peed on one this afternoon (after about 100 carbs at that point), and still show moderate. It must take a bit to flush all those ketones out of the body... But it took me by surprise. I guess I was expecting trace at that point. I'll check again tonight, and maybe two or three times a day for the next few days. I am facinated by the body's ability to change back and forth between glucogenesis and ketosis. So I guess I like to know when my body is making those adaptations.
A little update part way through my first carb up day - I feel rather bloated and gassy, been belching to beat the band all day, and I have a but of a tummy ache. Before I started, I was a little worried that I might get really sick and start barfing, but that hasn't happened. A couple other things that caught me off guard - my lack of knowledge in the fruit/veggie department, and the amount of fruit/veggies/cheese it takes to get to 150 carbs. I had no idea what carb count applied to each food, other than mushrooms, so I am getting an education. Appetite hasn't been too strong. Another surprise. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject:
Karen G wrote:
I am facinated by the body's ability to change back and forth between glucogenesis and ketosis.
Ha! I said I was fascinated and then used the wrong word, I think. I believe I meant glycolysis, not glucogenesis. I'm really not sure what the correct word is. I never was that great with science...
Anyways, what I was trying to say is that I am fascinated by the body's ability to switch back and forth between using carbs for fuel and using fat for fuel. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:23 am Post subject:
Karen,
You really are not doing this switch.
If you force your body to get rid of excess glucose, that is really more of a defense mechanism that the body employs to deal with this unnatural state, than it is using glucose for fuel. If you eat carbs long enough, the body will switch some cells over to glucose, like in the CNS, but, other than the blood cells, which must have glucose, the other cells will go on using fat, and most of the glucose will get converted to fat.
If you only eat carbs one day a week, your body will not even switch out these CNS cells from using ketones to glucose for fuel. Rather, what will happen is your glycogen stores in your muscles and liver will get crammed full of glycogen, along with all the water that entails for this production. Over the week, your glycogen stores will be used, as gluconeogenesis will be inhibited, which is the normal way for your blood cells to get glucose.
Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet emphasizes using 50 - 100g of carbs per day to supply the blood cells with necessary glucose. This amount will cause an inhibition of gluconeogenesis via insulin. Muscle cells will take up glucose on their own with no direct help from insulin, for the glycogen stores. What insulin does is inhibits hepatic gluconeogenesis.
Anyway, that is really all you are doing with this one day carb up. CKD is designed so you will not have that keto adaptation thing going on. You really won't be switching out your enzymes to change which substrates get used for producing ATP. If you remain ZC the rest of the week, the cells that can will keep on burning fat.
Get it? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:07 am Post subject:
Dean, thanks for the explanation, but I need some help. If you wouldn't mind walking me through this a little...
Dean wrote:
If you force your body to get rid of excess glucose, that is really more of a defense mechanism that the body employs to deal with this unnatural state, than it is using glucose for fuel.
You are talking about ketosis, here, right?
Dean wrote:
If you eat carbs long enough, the body will switch some cells over to glucose, like in the CNS, but, other than the blood cells, which must have glucose, the other cells will go on using fat, and most of the glucose will get converted to fat.
If you only eat carbs one day a week, your body will not even switch out these CNS cells from using ketones to glucose for fuel. Rather, what will happen is your glycogen stores in your muscles and liver will get crammed full of glycogen, along with all the water that entails for this production. Over the week, your glycogen stores will be used, as gluconeogenesis will be inhibited, which is the normal way for your blood cells to get glucose.
OK - so the CNS will continue to use ketones, and the muscles and liver suck up glycogen & water - I get that. This glycogen will be used instead of the liver turning some of my protein intake into the necessary amount of glucose, as it had been doing while I was ZC - correct? That's what gluconeogenesis is, right? Using non-carb sources to form glucose? And the extra glucose is ALL stored as fat? This I wasn't aware of. I thought that most of the glucose would be stored as glycogen, some would be used as energy for other functions, and some would be stored as fat.
Dean wrote:
Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet emphasizes using 50 - 100g of carbs per day to supply the blood cells with necessary glucose. This amount will cause an inhibition of gluconeogenesis via insulin. Muscle cells will take up glucose on their own with no direct help from insulin, for the glycogen stores. What insulin does is inhibits hepatic gluconeogenesis.
So Kwasniewski recommended that people stay at 50-100g of carbs each day, right? Do I need to try to stay within this range on my high carb day? You mentioned earlier that gluconeogenesis is inhibited. I assumed that when I ingest a higher amount of carbs, no matter how infrequently, I would have increased BG and insulin would be released. I came up with 150g carbs thinking that it would be enough to stop the production of ketones, but not so much that I am completely overdoing it. I was basically pulling a number out of my ass.
I tried to do some research on CKD, but everything I found related to muscle bulking, and was just a long list of instructions on how to do it and how it affects the muscles. I think that there is something else behind it besides building muscle through increased glycogen stores. I don't know enough about the science to form a hypothesis about what it is, but I have some ideas.
Dean wrote:
You really won't be switching out your enzymes to change which substrates get used for producing ATP. If you remain ZC the rest of the week, the cells that can will keep on burning fat.
So this completely blows my idea of how this works out of the water. As you mentioned, CKD prevents keto adaptation. I think preventing keto adaptation forces the body into a constant state of trying to adjust to different fuel sources. This internal struggle translates into the body using more energy because it keeps trying to adapt to one way of eating or the other. Am I totally off base here? _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:24 am Post subject:
Oh, one more thing. I wasn't planning to do ZC, but LC <20g carbs/day. I don't know how that will affect things, but I think the cravings will be too strong for me to stick to ZC, and I didn't want to set myself up for failure.
OMG I was hungry today. Not so much craving a specific food, but I kept feeling like I wanted to graze all day. After the next carb up I am flooding my system with fat right away in the am to see if that helps. I ate my highest fat content meal this evening, and now I feel fine.
I had a headache this morning, but nothing drastic. I can feel the increase in water retention, and see it in my ankles. Ketostix are negative. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:43 am Post subject:
Karen G wrote:
Dean wrote:
If you force your body to get rid of excess glucose, that is really more of a defense mechanism that the body employs to deal with this unnatural state, than it is using glucose for fuel.
You are talking about ketosis, here, right?
No. I'm talking about the fact that dietary glucose is an unnatural state, and that while this glucose will be used for fuel for the blood eventually (after it's been converted to glycogen), right away it will be sucked into the muscle and liver to get it out of the blood stream (defense mechanism to keep you alive). This has nothing to do with ketosis. While it can be thought of as "fuel", dietary glucose is hazardous to the body. The body has ways to deal with it, but, it's only in a defensive way, not a normal way. CKD is not normal. It is an artificial state you are intentionally creating for your body.
Karen G wrote:
OK - so the CNS will continue to use ketones, and the muscles and liver suck up glycogen & water - I get that.
The muscles and liver suck up glucose and water which they turn into glycogen.
Karen G wrote:
This glycogen will be used instead of the liver turning some of my protein intake into the necessary amount of glucose, as it had been doing while I was ZC - correct? That's what gluconeogenesis is, right? Using non-carb sources to form glucose?
Karen G wrote:
And the extra glucose is ALL stored as fat? This I wasn't aware of. I thought that most of the glucose would be stored as glycogen, some would be used as energy for other functions, and some would be stored as fat.
I didn't say ALL the glucose, I said most of the glucose.
Dean wrote:
If you eat carbs long enough, the body will switch some cells over to glucose, like in the CNS, but, other than the blood cells, which must have glucose, the other cells will go on using fat, and most of the glucose will get converted to fat.
If you are eating lots of carbs on a regular basis, your glycogen stores will be pretty full, right? So, the excess glucose can't go there, so it goes to fat, which is also temporary storage. Fat is used for fuel all the time, on any kind of diet.
Karen G wrote:
So Kwasniewski recommended that people stay at 50-100g of carbs each day, right? Do I need to try to stay within this range on my high carb day? You mentioned earlier that gluconeogenesis is inhibited. I assumed that when I ingest a higher amount of carbs, no matter how infrequently, I would have increased BG and insulin would be released. I came up with 150g carbs thinking that it would be enough to stop the production of ketones, but not so much that I am completely overdoing it. I was basically pulling a number out of my ass.
Kwasniewski recommends doing that many carbs every day if you follow his Optimal Diet. That is not the same as CKD. I was only saying that this amount would inhibit GNG, and, that it will also keep you out of ketosis. But, if you are doing CKD, you won't get out of ketosis. I only mentioned inhibition of GNG, because that happens when you have dietary glucose getting stored as glycogen. Normally, your liver will take care of your glucose needs (for primarily the blood cells only) via GNG. I don't think you are overdoing the amount of carbs you are eating on your one carb up day. I think that is fine. I was only saying that you are not switching fuel sources, as you thought. That is one of the principles of CKD, that you won't stop your use of ketones.
Karen G wrote:
As you mentioned, CKD prevents keto adaptation.
What I was saying is that you won't be having to get keto adapted every week. Like, you won't have to "start over" every week, because you should be able to remain keto adapted, even if you do one carb up day a week. Although, I'm not sure if you are keto adapted anyway, are you?
Karen G wrote:
I think preventing keto adaptation forces the body into a constant state of trying to adjust to different fuel sources. This internal struggle translates into the body using more energy because it keeps trying to adapt to one way of eating or the other. Am I totally off base here?
Yah, I don't think that is what happens. CKD is more about resetting leptin levels and it is also more about building muscles, as you found when you did your research. It is a way to manipulate hormones for body builders to do all these tricks with their bodies to get certain looks, especially pumping their muscles full of water.
That's not to say it won't help you break a stall. After all, that's what this experiment is all about, right?
Although, I must confess some skepticism here. I also must advise you that you would probably be better off doing some sort of calorie or macro ratio cycling. I personally think high blood glucose levels are damaging. It will be interesting to see if this even helps you. If it doesn't, I would go with some other type of cycling to see what happens.
All in the name of science. Hey, BTDT. _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now I get it.
You did use a word I was really happy to see: resetting. This is my premise, I feel like in the past after a cheat, it's like hitting the reset button on my internal weight loss monitor.
I don't know if I am keto adapted. The only thing I know to base that on is the ketostix. When I'm not cheating, I don't use them often, but they always show dark purple except right after a cheat. This would indicate that I am not keto adapted. There are some that say you can be keto adapted even if the ketostix show color because of consuming more fat than I really need; the extra ketones are still secreted in the urine. So I don't know. I know that on LC, I feel great, and have normal energy, but when I went to ZC, I got extremely tired for the first few days. I had also just given up coffee, so maybe my energy level was misinterpreted.
If I am not keto adapted, I would attribute that to eating too much protein. Because if my approximate once monthly cheats don't throw me out of ketosis, I should be keto adapted. According to some of the stuff I have read, I am consuming more protein than I require, and maybe there's quite a bit of GNG going on since there's an abundance of protein for my liver to deal with. I have thought of macro ratio cycling like you mentioned. If this doesn't work, it's next on the list. But if the effect of too much protein is excess GNG, leading to excess glucose in the body, wouldn't macro ratio cycling have the same effect as CKD?
And one other question: I know many don't rely on the accuracy of ketostix. But if I am not truly getting out of ketosis, why do I get a negative ketone reading after carb up? I consumed approximately the same amount of fat on the carb up day as I did previously, so it can't be attributed to not enough fat intake, and all the ketones being used up. So if I actually stopped producing ketones, and there weren't enough there to support the needs of the CNS, wouldn't the CNS have to use glucose as fuel? _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Flyover Zone Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 5143 Born: 3 January 2010 Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject:
Karen G wrote:
And one other question: I know many don't rely on the accuracy of ketostix. But if I am not truly getting out of ketosis, why do I get a negative ketone reading after carb up? I consumed approximately the same amount of fat on the carb up day as I did previously, so it can't be attributed to not enough fat intake, and all the ketones being used up. So if I actually stopped producing ketones, and there weren't enough there to support the needs of the CNS, wouldn't the CNS have to use glucose as fuel?
That would of course be assuming you were keto adapted in the first place. How long were you totally ZC? It can take a long time to become more fully keto adapted to the point of GNG decreasing. Perhaps that is why you were spilling the ketones in the first place, because you were not fully keto adapted. That would better explain why you get no ketone readings on the carb up days and why you are spilling them on your ZC days. Either way, you are still using FFAs for fuel for most of your cells. That never stops no matter how high you take your carbs. Does that make sense? _________________ When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix Every day you'll see the dust
Never get off the Bus!
Location: Pacific Northwest Joined: 22 Jan 2009 Posts: 1504 Born: 2 December 2009 Gender: Female
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject:
I occasionally pee on those sticks for fun..I have been practically zc for almost 3 months..I still turn em purple. _________________ Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:14 am Post subject:
Dean wrote:
How long were you totally ZC?
Totally ZC? 13 days. LC <20g carbs - 5 months.
Dean wrote:
Does that make sense?
Somewhat, but like I said earlier, I don't feel that I know enough to totally get it. I was over simplifying the process by thinking that when my body has carbs, it utilizes the carbs first, and then stored fat if there aren't enough carbs to support activity. And if there are no carbs, the body just utilizes fat.
I understand the bigger picture you are trying to get across. By carbing up one day a week, I won't switch to the process my body would follow if I ate that many carbs every day. I still don't really get all the details; I'll just have to wait for the results and see if it works or not.
But if it does work, it will still leave me wondering how it works. I don't know anything about leptin, but I looked it up on wikipedia, and it says it regulates appetite and has some effect on metabolism (I couldn't figure out how much effect). So maybe my first idea was right, but my reasoning was wrong. I think that somehow CKD increases the amount of energy used for performing the same activites as when I am LC. Or maybe it doesn't, and I'll find that out in a couple weeks. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:14 am Post subject:
y0u wrote:
I occasionally pee on those sticks for fun..I have been practically zc for almost 3 months..I still turn em purple.
Well at least it's not just me! I was beginning to think I was some sort of freak... _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject:
We can put it right next to the brothel - Freaks R Us. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Feeling ok today, cravings and urge to graze are almost gone. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Wisconsin Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 266 Born: 26 December 1974 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:37 am Post subject:
This experiment is now flawed. I ate some stuff I shouldn't have at a lunch meeting yesterday.
And honestly, I don't know if I want to continue this right now. So I'm going to take a few days to think about it. _________________ Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to loose - Recorded by Janis Joplin
Location: Pacific Northwest Joined: 22 Jan 2009 Posts: 1504 Born: 2 December 2009 Gender: Female
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:47 am Post subject:
Don't give up Karen....we all have "oopsie" days...Like me and my 2 bottles of wine not so long ago..oopsie. _________________ Flap-a-doodle-kick-a-poodle-kitty-kitty-cow-cow ~ Fat Freddy's Cat
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